Daily Kos

How Dare you, Cindy Sheehan?

Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:15:37 AM EST

Well, I actually had something else in store for this National Day of Mourning y'all call Thanksgiving. And really, my intent was to be sweet as bread pudding and fresh as the frost on the pumpkins. Then I read Cindy Sheehan's diary, and well.... what came out of the oven was yet another rant.

Dear Cindy,

I do not know how to begin. Perhaps I should start with a picture. You see the person on with the sign that says MEET WITH CINDY? Yeah. That's me. They say a picture is worth 1,000 words, but just in case, here are the words  to go with the picture, from an article expressing my appreciation for all that you do. I trust that you received the flowers I sent for the crosses after they were desecrated, and the small token of financial support I sent to the Crawford Peace House in appreciation, and in memory of your son. I cannot imagine your sorrow and applaud you for what you have done with that pain.  I am moved by your commitment to the cause of peace and to this country. By God, I cannot thank you enough!

As I sit down this evening, knowing it's probably not a good thing for me, as a person of American Indian descent, to so much as open this Pandora' box on the eve of what is a "holiday" for mainstream America, but what for me and my people is a day of mourning-commemorating the sacrifices our people have made--the loss of our lifeways, our languages, our families, our ceremonies, above all, our lands--so that your people may continue to occupy these territories (in many cases, illegally, with centuries of your governments support) if not in peace, then at least in relative prosperity, I do not know how to express my own grief, and, now--having made the mistake of reading your diary--my outrage. I ask that you sit down now and listen to me--to my grief, my outrage, and my pain which, tonight, is directed to you (hang on, I'll get to what you did to twist the knife in my side).

I had no intention of intruding on your holiday celebration, or on anyone else's--my previous posts attempting to alert this community to its own callous indifference and reckless disregard for Indian issues haven't exactly gone over like sweet potato pie, and I had pretty much resigned myself to just shutting up about the fact that it is not only Native American Heritage Month and that Thanksgiving is a National Day of Mourning for us [http://www.angelfire.com/... ]  and about the fact that these "issues" are not, contrary to popular misconception, matters of "the distant" past. I had hoped my next post in this series would be an "action item"--a post offering those people in this community who are sensitive to Indian issues and who do care about them some concrete avenues for action. Alas, your diary has once again demonstrated the need for continued persistence in drawing the attention of this community to the many and myriad ways you participate--perhaps unwittingly--in the ongoing assaults against American Indian sensibilities and in the rewriting of your own history as well as ours.  So I am compelled to respond.

Perhaps you are entirely unaware of the fact that this is for us a day of mourning. One cannot fault you for that--centuries of your statesmen and teachers have "felt it better this way". Last year, Michael Moore
posted this explanation on his website:

Even though the first explorers . . . had been warned about the heathen savages found in the "New World", they found the First Peoples . . . more than willing to teach them how to survive and live well in their new surroundings. . . .

 At the end of their first year, the Puritans held a great feast following the harvest of food from their new farming efforts. The feast honored Squanto and their friends, the Wampanoags. The feast was followed by 3 days of "thanksgiving" celebrating their good fortune. This feast produced the image of the first Thanksgiving that we all grew up with as children. However, things were doomed to change. . . .

 An army of over 200 settlers was formed  . . .  Because of the lack of fighting experience, and the vast numbers of the fierce Pequot warriors, Commander John Mason elected not to stage an open battle. Instead, the Pequot were attacked, one village at a time, in the hours before dawn. Each village was set on fire with its sleeping Natives burned alive. Women and children over 14 were captured to be sold as slaves; other survivors were massacred. . . .

 In 1641, the Dutch governor of Manhattan offered the first scalp bounty; a common practice in many European countries. This was broadened by the Puritans to include a bounty for Natives fit to be sold for slavery. The Dutch and Puritans joined forces to exterminate all Natives from New England, and village after village fell. Following an especially successful raid against the Pequot in what is now Stanford, Connecticut, the churches of Manhattan announced a day of "thanksgiving" to celebrate victory over the savages. This was the 2nd Thanksgiving. During the feasting, the hacked off heads of Natives were kicked through the streets of Manhattan like soccer balls.

 The killing took on a frenzy, with days of thanksgiving being held after each successful massacre. Even the friendly Wampanoag did not escape. Their chief was beheaded, and his head placed on a pole in Plymouth, Massachusetts, where it remained for 24 years. Each town held thanksgiving days to celebrate their own victories over the Natives until it became clear that there needed to be an order to these special occasions. It was George Washington who finally brought a system and a schedule to thanksgiving when he declared one day to be celebrated across the nation as Thanksgiving Day."
 Thanksgiving: Its True History (East Texas Review, 25. Nov. 04)

But what he might not have made clear is that the abuse is ongoing. The poverty rates (2.6 percent higher for Native Americans than for the rest of America), the suicide rate (190 percent higher for us than for the rest of America), homocide (210 percent), over 50 percent unemployment on or near reservations, 16.9 percent of American Indians without basic phone service (compared to 2.4 percent in the general populace), 14.7 percent without basic plumbing (compared to 1.2 percent for the rest), and on and on and on.

Mahtowin Munro (Lakota) and Moonanum James (Wampanoag) put it this way in their statement on the subject last year

When we dare to stand up for our rights, we are considered unreasonable. When we speak the truth about the history of the European invasion, we are often told to "go back where we came from." Our roots are right here. They do not extend across any ocean.

 National Day of Mourning began in 1970 when a Wampanoag man, Wamsutta Frank James, was asked to speak at a state dinner celebrating the 350th anniversary of the pilgrim landing. He refused to speak false words in praise of the white man for bringing civilization to us poor heathens. Native people from throughout the Americas came to Plymouth, where they mourned their forebears who had been sold into slavery, burned alive, massacred, cheated, and mistreated since the arrival of the Pilgrims in 1620.

 But the commemoration of National Day of Mourning goes far beyond the circumstances of 1970.

 Can we give thanks as we remember Native political prisoner Leonard Peltier, who was framed up by the FBI and has been falsely imprisoned since 1976? Despite mountains of evidence exonerating Peltier and the proven misconduct of federal prosecutors and the FBI, Peltier has been denied a new trial. Bill Clinton apparently does not feel that particular pain and has refused to grant clemency to this innocent man.

 To Native people, the case of Peltier is one more ordeal in a litany of wrongdoings committed by the U.S. government against us. While the media in New England present images of the "Pequot miracle" in Connecticut, the vast majority of Native people continue to live in the most abysmal poverty.

 Can we give thanks for the fact that, on many reservations, unemployment rates surpass fifty percent? Our life expectancies are much lower, our infant mortality and teen suicide rates much higher, than those of white Americans. Racist stereotypes of Native people, such as those perpetuated by the Cleveland Indians, the Atlanta Braves, and countless local and national sports teams, persist. Every single one of the more than 350 treaties that Native nations signed has been broken by the U.S. government. The bipartisan budget cuts have severely reduced educational opportunities for Native youth and the development of new housing on reservations, and have caused cause deadly cutbacks in health-care and other necessary services.

 Are we to give thanks for being treated as unwelcome in our own country?

OK, so what have you done to once again break open these wounds, to stick your foot smack dab in the middle of my heart and cause me to waste yet another evening trying to make you and your people understand how offensive you can be, perhaps with no intent, but nevertheless offensive?

Trail of tears. Do you know, do you have any idea what that term means? What it is? It's not a metaphor or turn of phrase to us, Cindy. And it's not a national park either: it is a historical event. A major one which resulted in the deaths of at least 4,000 Cherokee people. At least. What is more, it is symbolic of the brutal policies of Indian removal pursued by the American government in its quest for "living space" (Lebensraum). It was a murderous event, a murderous, murderous period in the history of this country that set the stage for the past hundred years of continued brutality. And the Cherokee Trail of Tears was but one of many. My entire family was lost in forced removal from our lands that my people call the "Anishinabe Trail of Tears."

Now, I understand your grief, really, I do, Cindy. As I stated from the onset, I cannot imagine the loss of a son. Perhaps that is why I chose not to have one--because I lost my entire family--and in fact generations of my family to what some people might call "the American dream". To me and to five generations of my family, this dream has been a nightmare--and all I've got to show for it is my very own broken treaty, a drawer full of death certificates and generations of memory (for that I am extremely grateful).

I'm sorry, but I read that "trail of tears" and I said to myself: How dare you? How dare you presume to put the loss of one son--even if it is the only one--one child, one life--on a par with the losses sustained not only by the Cherokee people, but by every nation of American Indians in this  country--some of whom have been wiped out entirely.

I have to assume that you know not what you do. That you are innocently oblivious to the degree of insult that is involved here. So I am attempting to tell you. This term "Trail of Tears" is not "up for grabs" as a generic metaphor for suffering. It isn't. It is ours. And every time it is used, it should remind you--and each and every one of you--of the millions of people whose lives, lifeways, languages and lands were sacrificed so that you might ramble and roam `or these our canyons, our plains, our forests, our lakes, rivers and streams. You and your family have suffered a great loss, Cindy Sheehan, and I have indeed put my money, my time, my energy and my physical presence behind my enthusiastic support of your efforts--in recognition of that terrible loss. But we as American Indians have lost more than just one family member and the Trail of Tears--that tragic historical event--is seared in our hearts, minds and souls as a reminder of that loss. Your family's tragedy is not a "trail of tears." Tragic, yes. Heroic, in many ways. A terrible sacrifice, yes, but it is not a trail of tears because even if the term "trail of tears" were to be taken "metaphorically," trails of tears involve generations of sacrifice, and not just of lives. Trails of tears involve the sacrifice of lifeways, of languages, and, above all, of lands.

You are on Indian land, Cindy Sheehan. You are on Indian land. All of you. You are on Indian land.

When you come to understand the degree of sacrifice that put you there, then, and only then, will there be hope for a better future in this country.  

Tags: American Indian Heritage Day, Native Americans, Trail of Tears, white hegemony, colonialization, identity politics, imperialism, sensitivity training, cultural erasure, reclamation (all tags) :: Add Tags to this Story

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Yes (4.00 / 7)

S/he Can.

Think of using teh term " Holocaust " to describe a serial killer.

---- Take a pill or talk?----

by apotropaic on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:18:19 AM EST
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alex chilton (4.00 / 2)

once wrote a song about a relationship and called it "holocaust."

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:11:22 AM EST
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I've (3.08 / 35)

used Holocaust to describe catastrophic events. I've used also used St Valentines Day Massacre, Bloody Sunday, My Lai, all to decscribe events or evoke imagery. Those are idioms, phrases, no one owns them. Trail of Tears is also the name of a band, the name of several songs, there are trails of tears on maps and in parks all over the US named Trail of Tears, there are rapids and Rock Climbs named that as well. There is a route I sued to run nicknamed trail of tears because it goes throgh some tough contry. That's what writers and people of imagination do, they use words. The sense of offense this diariest has appropriated is far more injurous to their own reputation here imo than anyone else. They might as well have written "I'm tyring to look like a Red State Plant" on the header.

I happen to be married to a half-blooded Cherokee myself, and she was laughing out loud at this author for the drivel above.

My guess: The diarist is drunk, mentally imbalanced, a bully, a freeper plant, or simply an asshole. Definitely one of the above though. I wouldn't take this diary as at all serious. I strongly suspect this is a conjob.

Read UTI, your free thought forum

by DarkSyde on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:12:10 AM EST
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Like the doctor (4.00 / 18)

said to my momma on the day I was born:

"This thing could get ugly."

Mark Twain -Let me make the superstitions of a nation and I care not who makes its laws or its songs either.

by Kingsmeg on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:32:04 AM EST
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it's a circular firing squad (3.82 / 17)

we're democrats, the only political maneuver we know is Firing Squads to the Left

the Pie Fight started the same way

do we really need this ???

I'm just askin ...

grab your pitchforks and lightsabers folks, this don't look so good

by knowthings on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:59:33 AM EST
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i believe it is... (4.00 / 2)

....essential to learning about ourselves and what we stand for.

but that's just me...

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:12:24 AM EST
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Now successful in driving Ms Sheehan (4.00 / 20)

from the site permanently. Advancing what cause? Next? Ideological purity, party of 6, right this way.

Cindy Sheehan should be Time's Person of the Year

by melvin on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:31:24 AM EST
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Cooler heads may prevail (3.70 / 10)

there has got to be a proverb about going to sleep at night and waking in the morning

by knowthings on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:39:09 AM EST
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Someday (4.00 / 10)

I notice some of us are now being systematically downrated. Including the two of us.

The great turkey fight of 2005. Let's ban the word ghetto, and diaspora, while we're at it. Joyce saw clearly that there is no appeal to blood soaked history when he described it as a nightmare from which he was trying to awake. Evidently, we still toss and turn in that nightmare. Acknowleding the past is necessary, but that is not what is happening here. Say hello to president McCain.

Cindy Sheehan should be Time's Person of the Year

by melvin on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:01:54 AM EST
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Maybe you didn't deserve my 4 (4.00 / 3)

but you definitely didn't deserve that 1.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:35:05 AM EST
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yes..and one of our front pagers (none / 0)

PP would be delighted with that. As she has stated several times..she is over the Sheehan diaries. Although should could have deleted those comments or diaries as she has been know to do. Ah the power of being a front pager.

*This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

by Chamonix on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:12:45 AM EST
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calm down Chamonix (3.66 / 9)

we all have our grievances from time to time, but now isn't a good time to go into what pisses everybody off about everybody else

I agree that this could have  been handled better, but I'm not willing to start attacking friends over this issue

we're supposed to be the adults

reality based thinking tells me that this isn't helping the cause

don't make me come back there, because I'll turn this car right around ...

by knowthings on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:34:02 AM EST
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OH PLEASE!! (none / 0)

Spare me this

"They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program." - G.W. Bush; 11/2/00

by pilotweed on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:59:00 AM EST
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We the fucked are still fucked. (4.00 / 2)

Stop the us vs. them bullshit. I don't care what statistical category is supposed to be "us." I don't care what database variable is supposed to be "them." It's all bullshit the investor class has been stirring up for centuries to distract "we the collectively fucked" from noticing the uber-rich has been raping us, is raping us, and will continue raping us as long as they can keep us killing other.

Stop picking at scabs. The wounds can't heal. Stop competing over who is more justified in feeling more righteous indignation. What does it matter when we are all wounded and grieving over deep loss? You can't keep score on grief. All you can do is hurt.

I have a better idea. How about if all of us who are hurting start a new "us." How about if the ones who are really causing all our pain become the new "them." Then we stop them from ever hurting us again.

by Bad Santa on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:20:54 AM EST
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Seems heartfealt enough (3.77 / 9)

I think the diarist is someone that probably holds alot of anger at the injustices inflicted upon her people, and part of it is probably just her anger asserting itself. As I posted below, I think it doesn't help anyone to allow anger to direct your thoughts and emotions, but all of us succumb to it sometimes. I think the diarist has the wrong idea about where to direct that anger, but I can't really hate on her for feeling it.

John Murtha = Walter Cronkite. The tide is turning. -4.75, -4.41

by Aethern on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:16:23 AM EST
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I doubt it (3.63 / 19)

If I felt heartfelt anger about people using a term that offends me, in this case one that is used for all kinds of things by all kinds of people all the time, I'd write a diary saying that. It wouldn't make any sense to single out the mother of a soldier shot through the head to make that point; that make zero sense.

What does make sense: If I was a freeper creep with a bunch of freeper creep helpers and I wanted to smear someone who took Bush down hard, someone who was very hard to smear on a liberal blog, and if I wanted to stir up trouble on a big successful lib blog, I'd try and disguise it using a tactic which I think liberals would all slobber over, like minorities or Indians, something to make them feel guilty. Or if I was just a drunker asshole, that would also make sense.

Read UTI, your free thought forum

by DarkSyde on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:36:47 AM EST
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Interesting (4.00 / 3)

I can't really dispute your claim.  How often does the right wing use our sincere desire towards tolerance and respect against us?

John Murtha = Walter Cronkite. The tide is turning. -4.75, -4.41

by Aethern on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:41:59 AM EST
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Never mind (4.00 / 1)

After going back and looking over Stark's previous diaries and comments, she seems to be for real.  

John Murtha = Walter Cronkite. The tide is turning. -4.75, -4.41

by Aethern on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:49:27 AM EST
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Then (2.61 / 26)

she has exceedingly bad judgement. Or a drinking problem. LOL, or both. I just don't buy that someone went from "I love you Cindy" to "You piece of crap whitey reminded me off somehting that happened over a  hudnred years ago with an obscure comment used by everyone and I'm still so sore about it I'm gonna rip you". Going up late at night when it's easy to get reco'd. Naw, I'd bet this a smear job. But terrible taste would also explain it I guess.

Read UTI, your free thought forum

by DarkSyde on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:57:37 AM EST
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I agree with Allison (4.00 / 3)

Belittling a human tragedy because it happened "over a hundred years ago" is disgusting.  It really is a shame that genocide is such a long-standing tradition, because now we have to hear people like stark whining about it all the time.

by Quilty on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:29:56 AM EST
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This is egregiously racist (3.50 / 6)

"You piece of crap whitey reminded me off somehting that happened over a  hudnred years ago with an obscure comment used by everyone and I'm still so sore about it I'm gonna rip you".

At this point, I'm going to presume you've been drinnking, and aren't thinking entirely clearly, so I can suspend my judgmentalism about it.

May I suggest some time spent learning about what white privilege is, and how FREEKING much damage it does? I just can't believe that you've ever been a part of a circle of any group of people of color, such that you could learn how the US looks from that POV.  

That post scares me.

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:11:50 AM EST
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Who drinking the higher proof? (none / 1)

I believe his comment as quoted by you was a(n accurate) paraphrasing of what stark said. I saw nothing in the post in question indicating DS had any lack of understanding of "white priviledge", nor pride of any sort. Read the post a bit more carefully, maybe over a cup of coffee, not a bottle of scotch.

-cdn

"It's not that I hate my country; it's that I love my country so much I can't stand to watch what it's doing to itself." --Walt Whitman

by grndrush on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:33:52 AM EST
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Are you kidding? (none / 0)

See my comment below.  Belittling a people's suffering by stating the fact that Stark is "still" so sore about something that happened "over a hundred years ago" (particularly when Stark explicitly described the egregious injustices that continue today) is just in bad taste.  If Darksyde thinks outrage at the suffering of millions of people, suffering that continues today, is just a "smear job" then he is severely mistaken.  His sentiment speaks to a profound misunderstanding of racial and ethnic divisions in America today.

by Quilty on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:32:11 PM EST
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Wow, I thought you an Idiot before. (2.00 / 3)

Now I realize you are actually a chuckleheaded idiot.  You should really look in the mirror before you pass judgement on someone else's judgement.  I assure you, from here your's looks like a bad freeway accident.

by Tonedevil on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:35:35 AM EST
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Need a mirror? (4.00 / 3)

"You should really look in the mirror before you pass judgement on someone else's judgement."

Maybe YOU should check a poster's diary history before making assumptions about their intelligence. Darksyde has an extensive history here, mainly diaries making highly technical material understandable to 'the masses'.

To call Darksyde a chuckleheaded idiot is like calling Dumbya an honest, visionary statesman.

-cdn

"It's not that I hate my country; it's that I love my country so much I can't stand to watch what it's doing to itself." --Walt Whitman

by grndrush on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:24:20 AM EST
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Your crush on him not withstanding... (none / 1)

the ability to discuss "highly technical material" and make it "understandable to the masses" while a great talent, is not really relevant here.  Darksyde demonstrated all the charm and intelligence of a 7th grade bully.  Starting with the juvenile attempt to show how absurd starkravinglunaticradical's position was, by substituting his own French heritage.  Then further he made the assertion that starkravinglunaticradical was performing some Rovian act.  And in the post where I was answering he gives us another example of his "fine mind" by saying that starkravinglunaticradical was lying, drinking, and/or expressing bad judgment.  Accusing someone of smearing someone by smearing them doesn't really work for me.
As far as I'm concerned Darksyde can go crawl back in the hole he came out of, and I really don't care how intelligent you think he is.

by Tonedevil on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:22:12 PM EST
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Darksyde (3.50 / 6)

Would you please try to read the diary sympathetically?  Sheesh.

By the way, I am not impressed by your argument that:

Premise one: you use words.

Premise two: your wife laughed.

Conclusion: the diarist is an asshole.

This is simple popmousity on your part.  You are not the arbiter of meaning.  Nor is your wife.  If you think the diarist is silly for . . . on Thanksgiving . . . objecting to the use of the term, "Trail of Tears" for anything other than the memory of Native Americans, okay.  That's your view.  

The diarist was expressing a different view.  That does not make him/her an asshole.

"In the beginning the universe was created. This has been widely criticized and generally regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

by LithiumCola on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:53:37 AM EST
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I (3.42 / 19)

diagree. The differing view was that Cindy is an uncaring thoughtless bitch because she allegedly said something that plenty of people said, she said it an unrelated way to the Indian tragedy. And prior to that the diarist admired Cindy. Now, how many here believe Cindy Sheehan is an uncaring, cold blooded, thoughtless imperialist who deserved that? Everyone raise your hand? Well, this diarist does think that.

That is either a coordinated smear or reckless, thoughtless, reasoning.

Read UTI, your free thought forum

by DarkSyde on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:02:34 AM EST
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you're putting.... (4.00 / 2)

....a whole lot of words in the diarist's mouth and that's just plain crap. plus, you advocate the co-opting of a term that means a whole hell of a lot to quite a few american indians. not cool at all...

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:11:27 AM EST
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What does FemiNazi mean? (3.00 / 4)

You are coopting a word that I find very offensive - that being Nazi.My grandfather is a concentration camp survivor, why are you using the word Nazi? In what context does it apply? You're a Nazi - a fascist,killing feminist rights advocate? I don't get it.

by Glickman on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:33:21 AM EST
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see my post... (none / 0)

....to johnnygentlecrooner elsewhere in this thread for a full understanding of the handle i chose in joining dailykos.

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:35:57 AM EST
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I don't have the inclination (2.00 / 2)

to give you a full understanding for your use of Nazi. Each time I see your handle the horrific stories my grandfather told us run through my mind.

by Glickman on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:17:55 AM EST
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Horse pucky (3.28 / 7)

To say that if a person criticizes anyone for a thoughtless, hurtful comment, that they're saying "you're an uncaring, cold blooded, thoughtless imperialist" is ridiculous hyperbole.

Exaggeration beyond any reason.

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:07:50 AM EST
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With a rant every 5 seconds or so (none / 0)

on this site -- that's your objection? That someone expressed anger on a topic on this site?

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:13:48 AM EST
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Not a bit (4.00 / 2)

I was just saying that with an issue like the treatment of Native Americans, the truth about the subject enrages me, so I can only imagine how much anger it generates in someone of Native American descent. I do think that Stark seems to allow the anger to take control, and the result is - in my opinion, of course - misdirected vitriol at Cindy Sheehan, of all people.

It is true that people need a wake up call as to the continued oppression of Native Americans and the truth about the history there, but it's frustrating that this was done in an attack on Cindy, who obviously didn't mean anything by it. I just don't think it helps the struggle.

If you're going to attack someone, attack those behind the oppression.

In the end, I think we liberals and progressives need to learn to cut each other a little slack sometimes and remember that we're all on the same side, and we've got a big adversary that will require all our energy.

John Murtha = Walter Cronkite. The tide is turning. -4.75, -4.41

by Aethern on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:59:07 AM EST
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Yeah, well I know a great song (none / 1)

called "Niggers Love Watermelon."  It's just a word, writers and artists use it as a metaphor, nobody owns it.  Just because a word or phrase in common usage does not mean it's okay to use it.  And the question is not who "owns" these phrases, it's whether or not liberal-minded people should just throw them around, particularly when these phrases are offensive to people.  I hate to tell you, but My Lai and Bloody Sunday are not idioms.  They are human tragedies and should be remembered and mourned as such.  

"I happen to be married to a half-blooded Cherokee myself, and she was laughing out loud at this author for the drivel above."

This is exactly like saying 'well I have a black friend and he thought the joke was funny.'

by Quilty on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:43:20 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Wow! (4.00 / 21)

I read your post before Cindy Sheehan's, so I assumed from your outrage that she had used "trail of tears" in an extended and egregious way. She didn't.

Even in the most ungenerous reading, her use of the term is scant evidence of your claim that she doesn't understand "the degree of sacrifice" that put her here.

"...leave it to our bureaucrats and our police to see that our papers are in order. At least spare us their morality when we write."

by rjontiveros on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:29:34 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


I think you might be missing (3.57 / 7)

the point.  Ms. Sheehan used the term in a post about her feelings on Thanksgiving.  

You might want to read through the diary again.

"In the beginning the universe was created. This has been widely criticized and generally regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

by LithiumCola on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:36:24 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Doesn't Take Away From the Point (4.00 / 12)

I have to say, I have never engaged in the adoration of Cindy Sheehan that's reigned on this site for months.  I think she's a sincere voice of outrage against the war, but I also think she's been under the influence of Joe
Trippi-like scenesters giving her shitty advice, and has made some bone-headed comments and decisions.  At the same time, what was probably a thoughtless line--a line Cindy Sheehan probably didn't write herself, but which was written for her so she could post the diary under her own name--has been elevated almost to the level of outrage as if she had denied the genocide of the Native Americans.

As a kid I always thought it peculiar that my dad's family made such a big deal to assert they were "pure" French-Canadian, and didn't have any Indian blood.  It wasn't until I got older that I became really perplexed, because I realized that my dad's family also had high cheekbones, a protroding brow, straght black hair, reddish skin and dark eyes.  Then, a little later, it became clear that it was a vestige of trying to keep families together.  If one admitted Native heritage in Canada in the 19th century, your children were taken from you and sent away to a government school.  I can't claim any strong identification with the Ojibway heritage I finally discovered.  And one might even claim that there's self-loathing about it (although it would be untrue for me, though the story would be different with my dad, grandmother, great-grandparents, etc).  But I just can't get outraged about a callous use of a term in this context.

I think the problem we have here with this diarist is something that happens all the time in a wider context, and certainly has happened with Cindy Sheehan.  Cindy Sheehan was, certainly for this diarist, endowed with mythic or prophetic powers.  Then, when she screwed up something precious to the diarist, the unrealistic exhaultation of Cindy Sheehan came crashing down with bitter disillusionment because she showed she was fallable.  As a result, the diarist makes her out to be some kind of a Judas, insensitive to anyone's suffering but her own.  

There are few things more disspiriting to watch than someone endow a public figure with more power and virtue they they deserved, and when the public figure proves their fallability, the true believers rally by accusing the person of being an appostate or betrayer.  

The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

by DHinMI on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:05:07 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


sincerely perplexed: (none / 0)

what does this mean?

At the same time, what was probably a thoughtless line--a line Cindy Sheehan probably didn't write herself, but which was written for her so she could post the diary under her own name--

We're not hearing from the real Cindy but from a surrogate or some assistant, is that what you mean?

Is nothing secular?

by aitchdee on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:34:19 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Well... (none / 0)

...read this diary, then read this diary and the comments on this thread, and you tell me that you think they're written by the same person without any editing assistance.  

The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

by DHinMI on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I hear her voice in both (none / 0)

My own posts aren't altogether consonant. (Whose are? Kos himself oscillates between Socrates & remedial 4th grader). In Cindy's case, the first post entirely formal; it's polished--edited, as you say. I spit shine my diaries before I post 'em; I suspect most folks do (don't you?). The latter is obviously informal: the lowercase "i" isn't sub-literacy, it's blogpost for "this isn't essay-me, this is conversational-me." Besides, it's a hurried apology composed under pressure: Cindy was upset; her feelings may have been hurt--heck, I think she expressed herself very well under the circumstances.

Honestly, to my ear there's no indication the writing samples aren't penned by the same person.

Is nothing secular?

by aitchdee on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Is it illegal to use Word first? (none / 0)

That could make all the difference.  That and the fact that she was upset when writing the second.

-5.75, -7.44

by JPete on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:20:58 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


POM (none / 0)

Some people here want control and POM - purity of message. Sound familiar?  Stomp any human attribute that dare been seen as controversial out of and fill that void back up with air and empty calories. The clone of a clone of a clone. Human beings and real life are a messy business, hard to control and harder to own.

We've got our share of thought police and party police who resent anything they can't control.

by debraz on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:13:20 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


And Some People Are Dumbasses (none / 0)

Tell me what your comment has to do with this discussion about my comment, and I'll tell you what mentioning dumbasses has to do with you.

The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

by DHinMI on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:25:12 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Hmmm... (none / 0)

Wow. Thanks, debraz, for es'plainin. So is Cindy really Cindy, or... ? Forgive me, I'm being dense. (Our UIDs are close in number; we registered approximately the same time: since then, you ever feel a little disillusioned? You don't have to answer. Tonight's kinda got me down is all. I'm stunned, actually.)

Is nothing secular?

by aitchdee on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:30:57 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


hell yeah (4.00 / 2)

but then I get right back up. Any group, the country, the party, this blog, your high school senior English class, has the same group dynamic at work.  Every group has someo who seek to dominate and control.  Herd mentality, Darwinism, blah-blah-blah. It's universal, human nature.

While some are actually skilled leaders, some are skilled bullies, and some are skilled manipulators.  Unlike the skilled leaders, the bully and the manipulator need control and will take it by any means necessary.  Because they can't earn power through leadership, they can't afford to allow the free exchange of ideas, free thought or any hint of independence.  We've seen Swift-boating a-plenty - the "with us or against us" crap right here.

IMO, Cindy is a wildcard, she can't be controlled, she has been lumped and dinged as the "nutty" fringe even by those who claim to represent free speech and freedom of expression. "Protests are hurting our cause" and "we'll look nutty" and "we have to stay on message."

For the terrible sin of speaking truth to power - all power.  Scares the daylights out of 'em.

by debraz on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:37:52 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


thought that I was the only one (none / 0)

Some of the groupies do need to take a step back - troll rating  anyone that posts even a mildly critical assessment of Sheehan has got to stop.

Agasin I think that she is a fundamentally good person but she is not infallible - non of us are.

'Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it'. - GBS

by stevej on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:20:22 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Have a 4! (none / 0)

I think you've hit the nail on the head about the (probably subconscious) motivations of the diarist.  

by sane on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:23:47 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Subconscious? (none / 0)

Let's not diminish her conscious motivation by positing something she is not aware of, but we are.  It's another form of colonizing, IMHO.

Even Freud realized that abuse leaves one with a very dimnished capacity for repression; in my own view, repression is a luxury and I envy those who manage it, but many of us, for all sorts of different reasons, live with our real feelings wholly conscious.  Often unpleasant, but terribly useful.

-5.75, -7.44

by JPete on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:26:41 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Speechless (4.00 / 7)

I have no words to assauge your grief.  Would that I did.  A blessing on you.  

I beg you leave me restless, I live with the impossible ocean and silence bleeds me dry!

by dangangry on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:31:42 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

recommended (4.00 / 6)

-- it behooves all of us, tho, to not attack one person for our collective misdeeds as a nation.

(I'm personally hoping the DeLay shit will help make people aware of how some are still being shit on and used...we're all of us suffering an eruption of being shit on tho, so i don't know...)

by amberglow on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:35:06 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Agreed and it's Guerrilla Marketing, IMHO (4.00 / 2)

To change public opinion, you need to get your message 'out there' and if you have no money, you can use guerilla marketing by piggybacking on some other celebrated person or cause.

This is an extreme and inappropriate use of that protocol.  It works in the print world where it is the only way you can gain visibility.  But in the webworld, anyone can have a say so it isn't needed.  I wonder if the diarist ever heard the term "backlash."  This sure turns me off, and I came to the party as a supporter of the cause the diarist allegedly  supports.  

Fighting them here, so we don't have to fight over there.

by NorCalJim on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:31:33 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

aoeu (4.00 / 8)

You are on Indian land, Cindy Sheehan. You are on Indian land. All of you. You are on Indian land.

Pretty compelling right there.

John Murtha = Walter Cronkite. The tide is turning. -4.75, -4.41

by Aethern on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:36:19 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


But I think your overall thrust is misguided (4.00 / 21)

Believe me, many of us know a great deal about what was done to the Native Americans, and for those of us of European descent, it is a source of shame. However, an alternative way of viewing 'Trail of Tears' as an expression to describe suffering is that every time someone uses it, it reinforces the wrongness of that specific crime in the public psyche. Even in our eurocentric, propaganda-laced early childhood curriculum, we learned about the Trail of Tears, or at least I did.

I am not Native American - I have a sliver of Algonquin blood, but not nearly enough to describe myself as American Indian - so I respect your right to be offended, and your right to express that offense. However, I think that there are bigger fish to fry when talking about setting things right than whether Cindy Sheehan uses a particular phrase in a non-offensive way.

Reservation social services and education, support of cultural preservation, and education among the public at large are the main issues to be addressed.

You may feel that you are educating the public with this diary, and I cannot entirely argue with you there. I certainly wasn't planning on giving thought to the Native American plight this evening, but now you can bet it will be fresh on my mind for awhile.

But I would also imagine that many people will not be willing to give you a fair audience because your point is contained in an attack on someone many here, including you, consider a hero.

Right now, at this critical juncture in history, it is imperative that we unite.

That doesn't mean letting someone get away with anything - in fact, we need to be more demanding of our leaders to adhere to principle - but a well-intentioned but perhaps insensitive turn of phrase is not the battle we need to be fighting.

Let me bring up Louis Farrakan as an example. He often says things that make me angry.  Less these days, but he'll occasionally let a phrase such as

The white man is our mortal enemy, and we cannot accept him. I will fight to see that vicious beast go down into the late of fire prepared for him from the beginning, that he never rise again to give any innocent black man, woman or child the hell that he has delighted in pouring on us for 400 years
Stuff like that just enrages me. I am not his or any black person's enemy, and in fact, I enthusiastically support what the Nation of Islam is working towards with Black Empowerment. So I don't take a stand on Farrakhan's words, because ultimately, he's a positive force. Like I said, it pisses me off, and I am not unwilling to express my views on it, but when push comes to shove, I support Farrakhan.

And you expressed that you do support what Cindy Sheehan is doing, so you and I aren't very far apart in attitude towards this.

However, one thing that we, as Progressives and Liberals, must learn is that people tend to turn to tribal instincts when attacked, and it sets the struggle back to put people who are sympathetic on the defensive because of remarks that are not intended to give insult, nor disparage the Native American's sacrifice and loss.

If someone's actions and words actively contribute to the injustices we are all fighting against, then by all means confront them openly, but I don't think Ms. Sheehan's remarks qualify.

Just my opinion.

John Murtha = Walter Cronkite. The tide is turning. -4.75, -4.41

by Aethern on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:02:41 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


You have a trace of... (none / 0)

You have a trace of Native American blood in you.  Congrats!!  I am 40, when I was in my 20's I read a book...it was actually pretty mainstream.  Can't remember if it was Time/Life or readers digest.  Either way, not one of them have been known for liberalism. The book was called "500 Nations".  It really opened my eyes.  

Anyone want to talk genocide?  What happened to Native Americans in this country was pure genocide.  I am not knocking anyone for what they believe as far as how we should go as a country-party-whatever.  But I do know that we have done to marginalize native americans in this country is digusting.  I can see why they call this a day of mourning.  

"They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program." - G.W. Bush; 11/2/00

by pilotweed on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:14:53 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Thank you for writing this (4.00 / 9)

Thank you for this diary. What you have said is so important and needs to be said until we truly understand the power of the words we choose to use.  

A terrible sacrifice, yes, but it is not a trail of tears because even if the term "trail of tears" were to be taken "metaphorically," trails of tears involve generations of sacrifice, and not just of lives. Trails of tears involve the sacrifice of lifeways, of languages, and, above all, of lands.

My family will be talking about this tomorrow.  Maybe it's little steps but my family needs to start taking them, especially my two grandsons who don't learn the truth about this country's history.  

Men, their rights, and nothing more; women, their rights, and nothing less. Susan B. Anthony

by caliberal on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:38:31 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Thank you for understanding. (3.08 / 23)

Really, I am in tears over this. Certainly not the first time and certainly not the last.

But the insensitivity is all the more disheartening coming from Cindy Sheehan, whom I have supported from the onset (i.e. even before Crawford), and those images of her receiving the quilt from some Native people (only caught that out of the corner of my eye.....).

Thank you anyway. If there is even one who hears it....then it was worth the time.

I give thanks for your understanding, your openness to the truth, the truth as we see and experience it. Every day.

Peace to you.

"I think the President should look across the country and find the most qualified man, woman, or minority."-Trent Lott

by starkravinglunaticradical on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:43:22 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i am profoundly sorry (4.00 / 38)

i would not ever cause anyone pain!!!
it was not my intention
i wish none of us were on a trail of tears!!!
please, don't cry, it makes me cry!!
love and peace
cindy

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:52:41 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Psst (3.14 / 7)

i wish none of us were on a trail of tears!!!

Whether it's valid or not, the diarist is saying you're not on a trail of tears because you're not Native American, and that your use of the term if deeply offensive, especially on Thanksgiving.  You should either defend your use of the term or cease using it.

The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

by DHinMI on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:29:23 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


This is (2.00 / 5)

really really insensitive.

i wish none of us were on a trail of tears!!!

by using this line in this way you have given the diarist a huge FU. You have, under the guise of an apology, repeated the thing you are apologising for.

'Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it'. - GBS

by stevej on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:26:16 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


a joke? (1.90 / 10)

"i wish none of us were on a trail of tears!!!"

Is this a joke?  Did Cindy read the diary?

by Quilty on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:57:49 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


in dire need of a clue (none / 0)

This is what's called rubbing salt in the wound.

by stormcoming on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:49:59 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Your story will educate two precious boys (4.00 / 5)

I'm so very, very glad you wrote this.  I've printed it out and will take it with me to my father's house tomorrow and as I sit down by the river with my two grandsons, 11 and 6, we will go through what you have said.  They are both eager to learn, we talk openly and frankly with each other, they listen intently when someone is teaching them through their own story so this will be extremely powerful for them.  

When my son was five we sat down for weeks while I read To Kill A Mockingbird.  Many nights we only got through one page because he had so many questions.  It opened us a conversation about racism and violence against women.  It opened up new ways to look at families and how they love one another.

The same thing will take place tomorrow so just know that you have given us a tremendous gift.  Two little boys will be the better for it.  Two boys will carry this throughout their lives and we will talk about it when they have grown as they tell me it was your story that opened their eyes to who and what the Native Americans are to us all and our history, our true history.

Men, their rights, and nothing more; women, their rights, and nothing less. Susan B. Anthony

by caliberal on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:57:38 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


p.s. (4.00 / 22)

i am also sorry for accusing you of overreacting...i have not been in your shoes.
but, please understand the immense grief that my family is going through.
we all share in the collective grief.
love and peace
cindy

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:58:48 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


thanks for that (4.00 / 5)

--none of us walk in others' shoes, and we often forget that. It's only thru our words and actions that we can even begin to understand each other.

I wish you peace tomorrow--i wish everyone peace tomorrow, and the comfort of being with friends and family and those we still have. (and i'm really looking forward to the 2 days off work) : >

by amberglow on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:30:27 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i wish all of us peace (3.85 / 21)

and have a great 2 days off of work.
i am heading back to the ranch to confront george again.

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:35:13 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Good luck (4.00 / 6)

Give the bastard hell.

by margaretc on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:36:26 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Take a deep breath and be proud (4.00 / 4)

...of the wonderful work and sacrifices you have made for the good of an entire nation.  Your use of the "Trail of Tears" was innocuous and it's an open question whether comparing atrocities is appropriate.  Reasonable minds can differ.  Also, it's not your duty to know every nook and cranny of world history.  I think the attack upon you was entirely unfair, I regret that you had to experience it during this holiday.  If you follow the rest of the thread, you'll notice that as people think it over more carefully, the general consensus is realizing that the diarist overreacted and was out of line to attack you personally.  

You are a hero and an inspiration and I wish you the best.  

by BPK on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:08:15 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


thank you (4.00 / 5)

blessings to all

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:22:12 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Cindy (3.15 / 13)

You are using your grief as a huge fulcrum to change the world.

And that is good. And admirable.

But please understand, there are a LOT of people who're going through grief at this time of  year. And have been for DECADES. Or at Christmas -- maybe lost a child or husband or sister at that time. Or maybe their parent is mentally ill, and has never been loving to them, and they mourn that their whole life. Or maybe their child died a day after birth.

NONE of us have a corner on grief. NONE of us have grief that's more worthy or more intense than someone else's.

Many of us get asked to stuff our grief, buck up, stop it, don't tell me about it, forget it, get on with your life! Some of us don't get recognition on a daily or even bi-yearly basis about our grief, you know?

When I saw that mother doubled over crying in front of the White House in Michael Moore's movie, I burst into tears and couldn't stop crying. I tried to explain it to 8 or so friends after the movie, and they stared at me like I was a bug. Get it? I lost a child too. Get it? And they didn't. OK fine!

And that's why I was crying -- because it was socially acceptable for her to grieve for a son who'd been lost at war, and she'd get all this patting on the back about it. And I had not gotten that, and wouldn't, ever.

I don't usually bring it up, because I turn into such a hot emotional pool if I do -- it freaks people out. Then I have to deal with the aftermath, which is specifically that people want me to comfort them, and basically promise I won't let my grief out of the bag again like that.

This person tonight -- nerve touched, went off. Expressed self. Let's learn from it, shake hands, understand a very large number of us have mind-numbing grief, and bond back together as a wiser community.

My two cents.

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:34:37 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


wow allison (4.00 / 14)

have i ever said that i am the only one in pain in this world?
i didn't go off on anyone but bush and the other war criminals
nor will i ever...
i made an innocent mistake
now the lead diary is
How dare you, Cindy Sheehan?
I won't make that mistake again.
Peace

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:47:30 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Interesting that... (none / 0)

no one seems to be taking into account all of the Iraqis that have died in the war, in this, which seems to be an effort to compare the significance of "death by volume" as it relates to the use of a phrase (that is not meant to cheapen the phrase, so please, no one take it that way.) Itseems a little ridiculous that we could ever hope that any phrase could ever truly capture human suffering and injustice. In my recollection of your diaries, I remember you almost always acknowledging the Iraqi tragedies along with your personal tragedy. Thanks for your sensitivity in that regard. I didn't have the opportunity to read your diary making use of the phrase "Traial of Tears", but I can't help but think it would never have been intended to be insensitive.

Peace to you Cindy, whatever day of the month it may be.

-wrong gulf, dickwad

by averageyoungman on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:07:29 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Yesterday, the guy at Starbucks... (4.00 / 29)

...typed my name on my order receipt as "Kike" instead of Mike. Although I'm Jewish, I chose to cut him some slack. Maybe you could do the same for Cindy on the day she visitied her son's grave. I'M CERTAIN SHE MEANT NO DISRESPECT.

And we are not on Indian land. It does not belong to you any more than it belongs to the colonists who stole it from you. It belongs to Mother Earth. You, of all people, should know that. Don't worry, she'll be taking it back soon enough.

No act of peace is ever wasted. peacepositive always.

by peacepositivemike on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:41:05 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Ahem . . . (4.00 / 9)

It belongs to Mother Earth. You, of all people, should know that.

I'm stunned.

"In the beginning the universe was created. This has been widely criticized and generally regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

by LithiumCola on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:48:59 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Words are powerful, huh? (4.00 / 7)

Next time I'll think some more before I type.

God bless us all.

No act of peace is ever wasted. peacepositive always.

by peacepositivemike on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:10:27 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Sorry, bud, read the treaties. (2.68 / 19)

It is an illegal occupation.

and incidentally, I am Jewish on my father's side. If I took offense at every single bit of sleight that is involved in one part of my heritage or the other, I'd be in the loony bin.

Trail of Tears is a historical event.

Line in the sand.

Off limits.

You are on Indian Land.
Read the treaties.

All 350 of them broken.

Read the history.

Google "Indian trust".

For starters.

Where's the 80 million, Abramoff, where's the 80 million?

"I think the President should look across the country and find the most qualified man, woman, or minority."-Trent Lott

by starkravinglunaticradical on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:49:17 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I hear you (4.00 / 7)

Sorry about the broken treaty. My ancestors were in Russia at the time being persecuted and murdered.

I've thought a lot about how the pilgrims ruined what was a paradise. I know that Native Americans treated the land with far much more respect than this culture does.

I'm already ashamed enough to be an American because of what we are doing in Iraq and when I see how our "leader" represents us every day like his damaging visit to China.

But trust me, Cindy meant no offense.

In your heart, you know this to be true. You are a sensitive stark raving soul, that's all. And so am I.

No act of peace is ever wasted. peacepositive always.

by peacepositivemike on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:03:34 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I suspect... (4.00 / 4)

that she/he was speaking in terms of the fact that ultimately we are all just renting this earth...and as the captain of the last shuttle mission implied, we're screwing it up...big time.

And as someone with Delaware and Mohawk ancestors, I do understand what you're saying. However, I doubt that Cindy meant any offense as she was counting her blessings, one of which is you. I suspect that her mental image is of her kids going through their lives not seeing Casey again...a sad reality.

Just a couple thoughts...

"Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

by kredwyn on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:08:49 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


You claim that the (4.00 / 5)

term "Trail of Tears" is off limits for analogies but then you go on in your diary to apply the term "Lebenstrum" to the polices of the American government.

A little inconsistent, don't you think?

(-2.75,-4.77) "Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose." Senator Barack Obama

by Sam I Am on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:44:39 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


and shall we, like the Shia, (none / 1)

dwell on injustice for seven hundred years?  Or shall all we descendants of usurpers of somebody else's land go back to where we came from? Perhaps we could all fight amongst ourselves over what constitutes proper "sensitivity" to others' concerns?  How about we all parse degrees of "Indian-ness" as the Afrikaaners parse degrees of "Blackness"? Would this give us clarity as to who really belongs here?

Has Cindy Sheehan groveled enough for you?  Did she apologize with proper sensitivity to your concerns?

Feel better now?

This diary helps get rid of Bush in what way? Helps us get out of Iraq in what way? Helps us win back our country from the treaty breakers in what way?

I do not need reminding as to who has paid the price for America's "success", and it hasn't just been Native Americans who have paid, and who are owed for that payment.

Cindy Sheehan is not the enemy, and I am ashamed to see her feeling forced to grovel in response to this outburst.

-8.0, -7.03 don't always believe what you think...

by claude on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:55:46 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

I honestly (4.00 / 10)

had no idea it was a day of mourning.  None.  I wonder how many others were as unaware as I was.  

Indiana 6th District Congressional Candidate a campaign of three simple words "People Before Profits."

by Barry Welsh on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:43:36 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

dear friend (4.00 / 25)

my family has set off on a trail of tears.
i know the (but can't understand) pain that my government has caused your people. it has caused me and mine enough, too.

i often cite how our country started in violence, almost exterminating the indigenous people.

i can't believe that you are the only one that has been harmed by this government or can be on a trail of tears.

i majored in american history and am ashamed of my country for doing what it did to our native americans.

i am sorry for your pain, my pain, my family's pain, and the pain of our nation.

our country has to stop killing people, no matter what color they are.

i didn't mean to offend you, or anyone.
you over-reacted.
peace

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:44:07 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Cindy, (2.85 / 20)

I tried to make clear in my diary that I understood it was probably not your intent to offend--that the offense was likely inadvertent. That does not mitigate the offense.

And as I made clear, I have supported  you and your cause. In fact, I have grieved with and for you. Your pain has brought tears to my eyes more than once. And this I have expressed by attending many vigils, in addition to making financial contributions,  writing on the subject and furthermore, getting others on board.

But you telling me that I am overreacting is about like gwb telling you that you are overreacting.

It is NOT OK to use this term which describes a historical event that has overwhelmingly powerful significance not only to me but to EVERY American Indian in this country to describe what you are going through. It isn't. And you don't determine what is "offensive" to me. I do.

I am offended, and  I am not overreacting. I do not claim to speak for all of "Indian Country", but rest assured that I know for a fact that I speak for many. A sincere apology from you I would accept, but not this bullshit making excuses by telling me I am "overreacting".

See, that's the thing you'all don't get--and it doesn't matter whether we're talking about what is offensive to black people or to Indians: you want to set the terms and say, "well, i didn't mean it that way, therefore it's not offensive." Well, we say: it IS offensive, whether you meant it to be or not. Change it. Whether you understand or accept that it is offensive, it IS. TO US. You don't need to understand it, and I don't expect you to necessarily KNOW in advance...but developing sensitivities on these issues requires that you accept "our" "authority" on these issues. That you accept when I say, "Hey, it's not OK" that it isn't ok. So, I have pointed it out. It is, to my way of thinking, glaringly offensive, and frankly, every word you wrote after that was lost on me (and I have read most of what you have written, here, on truthout, elsewhere on the net, so it's not like I'm not interested).

To say that your pain is not and will never be a "trail of tears" does not diminish your suffering--but it distinguishes it from this historical event and its aftermath (yeah, above all that, it's AFTERMATH).

Cindy, I have to tell you, in the sixties, I was one of those "Soldier Blue" "Universal Soldier" people who damned and condemned the people who went off to fight that war.

YOU taught me to see that differently. And, as a life time peace advocate, for the first time in my life, I have found myself supporting and empathizing with military families--because of you. You and your movement caused me to see a gap in my own sense of compassion and understanding. You taught me something about me and my views. You changed me. Forced me to see something I wasn't seeing before on my own self-righteous moral high horse peace-loving hippy trip. So now I find myself in the bizarre position of supporting the troops--sending phone cards to Walter Reed, for example. Shit, in the sixties, I'd have been inclinded to picket the place! I thank you for that. My life has been enriched by that. I am a better person for that.

Now, if I can return the favor. Great.

However, if you wish to persist in thinking I'm making a mountain out of a molehill....well...that won't change the compassion I have for military families, and it won't change my outrage for the way they are being treated, and it probably won't stop me from attending protests "in your name" (because this thing is bigger than you, and you know that, and that is to your CREDIT), but it will diminish my view of you personally.

I do hope you at least take the time to read very carefully all the links that have been provided, in my posts and in the comments others have posted.

Maybe it's not the right time. Maybe someday later it will dawn on you...."oh my god, now I understand why that person was offended by what I said."

"I think the President should look across the country and find the most qualified man, woman, or minority."-Trent Lott

by starkravinglunaticradical on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:17:49 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i also (4.00 / 20)

apologized for saying you were over reacting
did you see that?
I AM SORRY!!!!!
support me, or don't...it is about ending the war.
again
i have been chastised
how dare me?? i will never use that terminology again.
I AM SORRY!!!
peace to you
believe me, i will be in mourning today for all of our losses.

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:29:58 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


you didn't back down from Bush, (4.00 / 3)

don't back down here. So stop apologizing. You know she overreacted and that this bickering over the use of the phrase in question is pedantic and useless.

The right-wing jackals giggle with glee over shit like this. And that doesn't help us.

by agentcooper on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:36:46 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


give it a rest already (4.00 / 3)

for fuck's sake. Another diary for a comment sheesh!

YOU OVERREACTED

and you're not making many friends here. Cindy is a well meaning sweetheart. It's like you scolded a puppy for an hour for tracking a little dirt on your precious carpet.

I've been to I have a bit of Choctaw in me and I wasn't offended. But that's me, I don't get offended by much.

That's how you never let them get you down.

by agentcooper on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:33:51 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


"I tried to make clear in my diary..." (4.00 / 2)

You need to change the title of your diary.  It taints the entire message you're trying to convey -- that same message which you're attacking others for not understanding.

by busternjake on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:36:16 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


This person didn't "over-react" (2.83 / 12)

Maybe you could update your diary explaining your use of words.


I wear the black in mournin' for the lives that could have been/ Each week we lose a hundred fine young men. -- Johnny Cash

by Plutonium Page on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:45:13 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i will (4.00 / 10)

thanks
i didn't have any idea, or i wouldn't have used the phrase
believe me!

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:53:37 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Yes, she did. (4.00 / 6)

I was unable to view the picture, so I can only assume it is a "she."  My apologies if I'm mistaken.

Beautiful story and wonderful history lesson aside, she did overreact.  I can only pretend to understand the anguish that both must feel at this time of year; but we are on the same team. I think it's safe to assume that Cindy would not have used the phrase if she'd thought it would offend anyone.  

I know what the "trail of tears" was, and I'm sure most folks here do as well.  It has come to be used as a metaphor for an unending journey of sorrow.  Those who use it aren't trying to rewrite history, they are simply trying to express in as few words as possible how they are feeling.  

If we continue this war on language and politcal incorrectness we are going to have to stop using all sorts of phrases.  Phrases like:  Inquisition, Final Solution, Genocide, Crusade, Killing Fields, Ghettos, etc.  You get the idea.

by Zero The Hero on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:34:58 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


nah (3.37 / 16)

i wouldn't if i was cindy.

if the diarist can't tell s/he and cindy are on the same team....

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:53:29 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Shush! (4.00 / 13)

We have two people in pain here, lets console both and let the rest slide.  There is little to be gained by a he's right no she's right war of words between friends, and I believe if these two met, they would be friends.  

I beg you leave me restless, I live with the impossible ocean and silence bleeds me dry!

by dangangry on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:03:17 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i totally agree (4.00 / 5)

i believe if these two folks met, they would be friends.

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:04:51 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i'm sorry (3.11 / 9)

i take it back.

apparently the diarist and cindy aren't on the same team.

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:00:26 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Bullshit. (2.30 / 23)

Dammit, the difference here is: I have gone out and supported Cindy Sheehan (financially and otherwise). I have shed tears, real tears of grief for her and for her son (not for the movement, not for her "cause", for this woman, this person, this mother who has lost her child for NOTHING but lies). And this is not the only  "white people's" cause to which I have contributed my money, my tears, my talents (as writer, as translator and in many other capacities) with no expectation for anything in return.

And we Indians have been doing this all along. We support your causes. We are informed about them--because we inform ourselves.

It is high fucking time you all return the goddamned favor.

Maybe,  just maybe, one of these days someone could get around to saying (and putting their money and their energies behind that) Thanks for the land people. Thanks for the sacrifice.

Barring that (and I'm not holding my breath waiting here), develop at the very least some sensitivity for these issues -- even if it is only at the linguistic level. Yeah, language matters. Maybe when your native language is completely stolen from you, when you have the experience of being slapped on the back of the hand with a ruler by some fucking white bitch in a boarding school JUST BECAUSE you are speaking your native language, maybe then you will understand. maybe then you will listen.

Maybe that's what it's going to take. Maybe you need to lose all that before you appreciate the significance of it, the sanctity of it, the sweetness, the sacrifice, and the loss.

"I think the President should look across the country and find the most qualified man, woman, or minority."-Trent Lott

by starkravinglunaticradical on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:30:47 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


any presumption on my part (4.00 / 9)

to know where you're coming from...

it would be totally offensive.

i can't know.  i simply won't even try to.  i trust you and fully believe you are correct.  and i'm serious about that.  the passion in this diary is profound.

i am debating nothing in your diary.  nothing at all about the subject proper.

except for one thing.

the idea, implied or otherwise, that the horrible crimes, what you're talking about somehow exists IN OPPOSITION to cindy's cause.

i think they are complicit.

i really and most genuinely believe you two are on the same team.  and i'll stand by that no matter how many troll ratings i get.

 

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:37:03 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


why? (4.00 / 40)

I'm barely going to touch on the content, but rather the form of this diary.

This could've been a great diary. You could've said EVERYTHING you said without it taking the form of an attack against Sheehan. You could've written a compelling diary about the day of mourning, the misuse of trail of tears, etc., etc., and I doubt few of us wouldn't have been deeply moved.

But instead, you couched it all in a furious diatribe against Cindy Sheehan. Why?? What makes Cindy so infallible that she is not even allowed an unfortunate choice of words? She's never held herself out as the Perfect Human Being, or the Voice of All Democrats Everywhere.

Did you really think she MEANT to offend Indians?

If you do not believe she meant to offend Indians, than this diary is fundamentally dishonest--you're attacking someone for their choice of words knowing that it was a mistake. Yes, 99% of us non-Indians here need to be educated on this subject. But that does not make us bad people deserving an upbraiding when you should darn well know that we want to be on your side.

If you do believe Cindy intended the offense, how do you form that belief? Has she done this in the past? I could be wrong, but somehow, I doubt it. Cindy has apologized all up and down this thread, and I can only imagine how shocked and saddened she feels that she has unwittingly caused you this much grief.

Making this "about" Cindy Sheehan is terribly unfortunate. Anyone on this site could've made the same mistake, but I doubt they would've generated a ranting diary directed at them personally. People like Kossacks are the ones who would gladly spread this diary's message--you did not need to attack someone to have made your same point, and it is a shame you did.

"I told them on Inauguration Day. I said look into my eyes: no new enhancements." - President Johnny Gentle (Famous Crooner)

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:06:21 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


The author did NOT (2.42 / 7)

attack Cindy Sheehan.

He attacked something she SAID.

Get the difference, please people. It's Communications 101.

I'm sincere requesting this here -- equating those two things causes a lot of problems in our world.

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:49:12 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


check out the title of the diary (4.00 / 13)

it's not: "hey cindy i have an issue with something you said."

it's this:  "how dare you, cindy."

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:57:30 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Sorry, but i can't agree with that. (4.00 / 20)

It's screaming at me right now: "How Dare you, Cindy Sheehan?" You think that's merely the sterile disagreement with her word choice? My words are part of me. They are the result of my education and understanding. They are my way of communicating me to you. When I choose words, it is because I believe they reflect who I am and will have the most impact.

When you say, "How dare you choose such an offensive term," those words do not just float unattached in the ether. They do not cease to be part of me any more than a child ceases to be part of its parents when someone snidely comments on that child's behavior or upbringing. (Yes, it's an exaggerated analogy, but the point is the same.) You can't tell me I've said something dumb and offensive without it  really meaning I believe something dumb and offensive.

But really, that's all academic. I believe the diarist IS attacking Sheehan personally for daring to use "trail of tears" without the diarist's more complete cultural understanding. I see no distinction. This is getting into "the definition of 'is' is" territory. If you disagree with that, try berating someone like the diarist has done to poor Cindy, and then tell them, "It's not you, it's just your words." I somehow doubt they'll nod approvingly.

"I told them on Inauguration Day. I said look into my eyes: no new enhancements." - President Johnny Gentle (Famous Crooner)

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:00:52 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Well, she couldn't have attacked (4.00 / 4)

Cindy Sheehan literally.  They weren't even in the same room, right?  The question is whether she was saying "I disagree with what you said here" or "You have done something bad here."

I read this as a generalized attack on Cindy Sheehan's character.  Does it draw attention to a righteous cause?  Sure.  But it still uses Cindy in an instrumental matter, disrespecting her humanity (and humaneness).  Personally, I don't like it and, while I'm convinced that Darksyde's theory that this is a troll (which it well could have been) is wrong, I still think that the tone is self-defeating.

By the way, I am disagreeing with what you said here, not slagging you more generally.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:04:12 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


sometimes.... (1.20 / 5)

....ignorance can be incredibly offensive....

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:16:46 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


c'mon (4.00 / 16)

there's ignorance, and then there's willful ignorance. How can you upbraid someone for simply not knowing the full cultural impact of a term??

God help us if every Kossack has to know everything about every culture--and must actually experience it through their eyes--before they can post. Hell, I'm trying to think back to the number of dumb things I've probably said in my year-and-a-quarter here.

And frankly, how the heck do you get off preaching to anyone about ignorance and cultural sensitivity with the name of FemiNazi?? Is that now really so fun and quirky a term thanks to Seinfeld??

"I told them on Inauguration Day. I said look into my eyes: no new enhancements." - President Johnny Gentle (Famous Crooner)

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:37:59 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i picked the handle... (none / 0)

...because the first time i heard it was when i was in a diner in wyoming. the restaurant owner had rush limbaugh on the radio, and he used it to describe, essentially, women like me -- intelligent, strong, independent and obviously intimidating to idiots like him. i spewed my coffee all over the booth i was sitting in and laughed for about an hour straight.

i had no idea that seinfeld ever used the term. i know the "soup nazi" was the subject of an episode of his show.

you may click here for a more thorough background on the term.

meanwhile, it might behoove you to read this book for starters.

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:31:43 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


asdf (4.00 / 3)

i'm sure it's been written about plenty of times. the point is--as you've explained--it was originally coined as a term of offense by an odious, disgusting human being. Okay fine, it's an empowerment/co-opting thing. Great. But i would be quite willing to bet that there more than a few people here who would prefer that word not be put in front of them. Or is cultural sensitivity only applicable in some but not all cases?

"I told them on Inauguration Day. I said look into my eyes: no new enhancements." - President Johnny Gentle (Famous Crooner)

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:39:19 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


funny... (none / 0)

...but nobody's ever complained about my handle except you. i've actually had quite a few people say they love it, but i suspect they knew where it was coming from. i'd be happy to put it up for a vote in a poll on this wonderfully democratic website.

anyway, my choice was not about empowerment or co-opting anything. it was all about snark. to think that rush limbaugh gets his panties all in a wad over a lil old woman who thinks her shit doesn't stink. and, yanno, i don't give a fuck if i offend that fat bastard.

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:45:25 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


his point was to point out your hypocrisy (4.00 / 4)

in supporting this "no tolerance" stand towards Cindy Sheehan while you wield and defend an equally offensive insult to the Jews.

Q:"You've called Bush a loser." A:"And a liar." Q:"You apologized for the loser comment." A:"But never for the liar, have I?" - Rolling Stone with Harry Reid

by alivingston on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:59:55 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


please explain... (none / 0)

...how my handle is offensive to jews.

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:20:16 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Can't speak for the other poster but (none / 0)

actually the term "Kossack" itself is the one that gnaws at me.

I'm guessing that that discussion has taken place here before, though.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:22:30 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


kossak... (none / 0)

....is a term that only some on here call themselves. others call themselves kossians, among other things. me personally? i use a handle that was meant to express the absurdity of rush limbaugh's logic. and if someone's got a beef with the term they should take it up with him, since he's the one who compared feminists with nazis.

and, yes, i realize you're not speaking for the other poster(s).

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:28:17 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Feminism does have an eliminationist quality to it (none / 0)

Just sayin...

Join us for the Terrorism Walk!

by shmooth on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:36:54 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


how so? (none / 0)

just askin...

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:39:16 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


the whole 'men are violent' schtick... (none / 0)

Therefore, if men weren't here, the world would be a better/perfect place. The world is so jacked up because men run it. Wait until we can reproduce asexually. All that mess. It's very eliminationist.    Very Bill Bennett aBorting Black Babies.

I'm talking specifically about the brand of Feminism listed as one of the Ten Key Values of the Green Party.  I was actually about to become a Green, but I saw this Feminism stuff, and was like out!

More of my thoughts on Feminism here, but not much there on the eliminationist aspect to it all, unfortunately.

Join us for the Terrorism Walk!

by shmooth on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:00:58 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Is that your belief, or feminism's? (none / 1)

I've never seen it advocated that because men are violent (and there's not even a viable argument that they're not a much more violent gender) they should be eliminated.  

It's not "if they weren't here." It's "If they weren't so violent, and/or didn't control every single avenue of power" the world would be a better place.

Can you advocate convincingly for the rationale that men should still control the universe?

What's the clangor and the clamor? Throw BushCo in the slammer.

by MissAnneThrope on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:24:01 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


um... (none / 0)

...you'll never hear me say any of those things because i don't believe them. and i'm not sure how you come to equate those things with feminism.

i'm pretty sure that all the feminists i've known, read about, admired don't believe those things either.

it's all about equal pay for equal work, being treated the same as any men, being afforded the same opportunities as men, having control over our own bodies.

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:52:53 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


and.... (none / 0)

....go back and read all my posts in this thread. i never expressed a no-tolerance view. i said words should be chosen very carefully.

german nazis went after jews and women like me. there is no such thing as a feminazi.

don't be obtuse.

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:23:13 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


you are taking the name (3.80 / 5)

of the perpetrators of some of the worst crimes against humanity, and against jews specifically, and you feel you have the right to include it as part of your user id.

how dare you?

in addition, you such it in such a way to equate the despicable term to "feminist", which is an insult to true feminists.

or, do offenses only matter when someone writes a long, recommended rant titled "How Dare You ___?"

Q:"You've called Bush a loser." A:"And a liar." Q:"You apologized for the loser comment." A:"But never for the liar, have I?" - Rolling Stone with Harry Reid

by alivingston on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:38:56 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


words should be chosen very carefully...... (1.71 / 7)

you said it Nazi.......

by Glickman on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:32:20 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


good bye now... (none / 0)

....i've grown tired of you.

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:33:47 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I troll-rated you (none / 0)

which, as far as I can recollect I have never done before. If you want to know why read this.

Ipods need gapless playback!

by drag0n on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:14:46 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


so it's ok for you (4.00 / 3)

to appropriate a word for your puposes, regardless if it offends someone - but Cindy Sheehan uses a phrase and she's taken to task for it, even when it's obvious to anyone who's paying attention that she means no harm to anyone else.

You on the other hand are desperately looking for attention with your handle - anything to shake em' up or get attention for you or your cause.But then how many people are you really turning off with that handle?  

by Glickman on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:00:35 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


huh? (none / 0)

i didn't know my purpose on dailykos was to turn people on!

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:19:35 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


well ok then..... (none / 1)

you don't turn anybody on. Anything you say is'nt meant to inspire or educate I guess - and from reading your posts it's obvious you don't do either - you're just spittin' in the wind.Take a hike Nazi, you're out of your league here.

by Glickman on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:29:56 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i tried to educate you... (none / 1)

....but it just didn't take, did it?

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:32:43 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


CAUTION IRREVERANT RANT!!! (4.00 / 28)

I'm sorry, but ignorance, however offensive, is not the same thing as malice.  The diarist seems to treat Sheehan's gaff as such.  The admonishment by the diarist was offensive to me.  "how dare she?".  COME ON!  How dare she WHAT?  Misuse a phrase?  Sheehan wasn't trying to diminish the Trail of Tears, she was using a commonly known historical event and using it as a metaphor for her own experiences.  I understand that this diary is rooted in deep deep suffering, but slappin' Sheehan in the face for her use of Trail of tears "is over the top".  

*DISCLAIMER*The use of the phrase "over the top" was not meant to offend WWI veterans (Even if there are ZERO on Dailykos).  British WWI vets may be offended by the use of the phrase "Over the top"because it refers to the process by which WWI officers sent their troops "over the top" into the "no man's land" which was the 100 or so feet of cratered hell where most WWI soldiers were shot to pieces by advanced machine guns.

*FURTHER DISCLAIMER (and my main point)** there are MANY MANY word-mines (words that illicit volatile responses) that exist in the English language. (and by using word "mine", I do not mean to diminish the absolute f'n TORTURE that real land-"mines" cause...I do not say this in jest...and yet, you can see the way this conversation can keep going, and going and going)::::When we use metaphors in our attempt to explain or express ourselves, we run the risk that those metaphors won't travel well from our pen to our audience.  I suggest that writers take greater care not to step on word mines, but also for audience members to listen with greater compassion.   Cindy didn't intend to blow up the history of native american genocide in America.  She used a phrase which is a VERY strong symbol of "GREAT SUFFERING" but is also a phrase that implies a Long, arduous, morbid, painful, and tortuous journey. The three word phrase is not such a bad fit taken in this account, though I understand it is still offensive to some.  

If I say that the earth has been "raped", do I demean the psychological, emotional and physical torture that my friends have suffered by being raped?  

If I said I was "Shellshocked" by Bush's re-election, do I diminish the true nature of being shell shocked like the australian regiments that were slaughetered in Suvla Bay?

If I say that my boss is a Nazi do I somehow diminish the true evil that Nazis represent?  

WE USE WORDS.  Sometimes we borrow them from other genres and histories to communicate our point.  If we didn't then the english language would be dead, like latin.  Really, are you going to tell half of the youth of america to stop using the phrase "pimp my ride" because it glorifies the affluence of pimps who abuse, rape and traffic sex workers?  Maybe we should, but I'm not going to jump down the throat of a fellow diarist for using such a phrase. .  

Most of the people who post here are NOT professional writers.  It is hard to find words, and sometimes analogies and metaphors fill the gap for us.  Further, some of us, like myself, use word-mines on purpose for sick and twisted cynical irony.  It is a artform of writing all to itself.  

Yes, the true history of Thanksgiving MUST be taught and understood by all.  But Sheehan is NOT the enemy for stepping on this word-mine.  

Thanks for the educational diary, but no thanks on the admonishments to Cindy.

by Orwell1984 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:37:20 AM EST
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bravo (none / 0)

I had my own comment to post but you said it well enough.

Take a step back and you can see why those right of center make such fun of us. I know I don't really give a rat's ass about what they think really but this excessive PC BS is not healthy.

by agentcooper on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:21:47 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Hmmmm, (none / 1)

Aren't "Indians" from "India"?

"They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program." - G.W. Bush; 11/2/00

by pilotweed on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:32:05 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Actually, (4.00 / 2)

Census statistics show that American Indian is preferred. It seems Native American is somewhat disfavored, or at least not widely embraced.

As an example, this is a commentary from famous Lakota activist Russell Means:

I abhor the term Native American. It is a generic government term used to describe all the indigenous prisoners of the United States. These are the American Samoans, the Micronesians, the Aleutes, the original Hawaiians and the erroneously termed Eskimos, who are actually Upiks and Inupiats. And, of course, the American Indian.

I prefer the term American Indian because I know its origins. The word Indian is an English bastardization of two Spanish words, En Dio, which correctly translated means in with God. As an added distinction the American Indian is the only ethnic group in the United States with the American before our ethnicity.

At an international conference of Indians from the Americas held in Geneva, Switzerland at the United Nations in 1977 we unanimously decided we would go under the term American Indian. We were enslaved as American Indians, we were colonized as American Indians and we will gain our freedom as American Indians and then we will call ourselves any damn thing we choose.

Finally, I will not allow a government, any government, to define who I am. Besides anyone born in the Western hemisphere is a Native American.

Now here's an area where the diarist really could educate as opposed to berate.

"I told them on Inauguration Day. I said look into my eyes: no new enhancements." - President Johnny Gentle (Famous Crooner)

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:30:54 AM EST
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Yes - Columbus thought he'd arrived in India... (none / 0)

Thus, 'Indians'.  At least, that's what I've been told.

Join us for the Terrorism Walk!

by shmooth on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:52:07 AM EST
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The people that (none / 0)

the European settlers/invaders encountered were orginally from Siberia.

So I wonder if those who crossed the Bering Straits encountered and exterminated an earlier race of people who occupied North and South America?  

 

(-2.75,-4.77) "Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose." Senator Barack Obama

by Sam I Am on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:53:12 AM EST
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People who are looking to be offended (3.64 / 14)

rarely are disapointed.

Shouldn't you be more pissed off at people like Jack Abramoff? or the Interior Dept who owe your people what? billions of dollars?  You know, assholes who's INTENT is to screw your people over!  Instead of a woman like Cindy Sheehan who hasn't done' squat to you accept say "Trail of Tears" as if you and your people are the only ones who have every had a reason to cry.  Don't you think that's a little arrogant on your part?

Maybe I should start a mission to get revenge on England for starving my ancestors during the Great Potato Famine.  Maybe you don't think thats a "Trail of Tears" but it's the largest human diaspora in history.

And you may think this is indian land, but buddy it's not my land either.  I have the "privilege" to pay taxes on this piece of shit square lot for years until a business comes around to my town and swipes it out from under me under the guise of Eminent Domain.  So give me a break.

"You might think that. I couldn't possibly comment." Frances Urquhart (House of Cards)

by Yankee in exile on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:26:09 AM EST
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Just one more thing (none / 1)

How do you know I don't support the causes of the American Indians?

I just smile whenever I see ads for tax free cigarettes and another indian casino open.  Kill and rob the white man slowly, just be sure to do it in a way where he thanks you for it.

"You might think that. I couldn't possibly comment." Frances Urquhart (House of Cards)

by Yankee in exile on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:35:26 AM EST
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I liked your sentiment (none / 1)

may or may not have expressed it differently.  Who knows?  Reading through these comments has caused my head to spin.  Looks like a bunch of people intent on being offended by someone.  I liked the diary, didn't agreed with the delivery but the delivery is not mine and I certainly understand the feelings behind it. For me the whole thing boils down to the fact that we,(in general) as human beings, pretty much suck.  Those with power tend to use that power to suppress those who have what we want.  Or maybe just to suppress others to feel more powerful.  

by newfie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:55:40 AM EST
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interesting... (4.00 / 3)

thank you for the bigger picture

i think many politically minded people could use this as a lesson

one also wonders if it is not time for new tactics all together

   

Zen got me this far.

by lightnessofbeing on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:45:20 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

She's may be on Indian Land... (4.00 / 8)

But so is George Bush... and those were not Indians who were hauling Cindy Sheehan's sister and Daniel Ellsberg off to jail today...

Your diary is heartbreaking and quite educational... with great regret, I must admit to being embarrassingly less-than informed about many of the things you wrote about... I'm guessing I'm not alone in that regard...  you have every right to feel as you do and to express your feelings however you see fit... I realize you neither seek nor require validation from anyone, least of all me...

But of all the individuals on the planet at the moment who deserve your rage and scorn, Cindy Sheehan is far down the list in my opinion...

Certainly her use of the term "Trail of Tears" was ill-advised and clearly hurtful to you... my guess is she'd be mortified to learn it struck you as it did... hopefully you'll accept her apology, if (I'm guessing "when") it's extended...

Dick Cheney IS Oswald Cobblepot

by ThatSinger on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:49:56 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Rec'd (4.00 / 2)

Having my formative years living in the land of the Lakota, I was brainwashed into believing the savages were the "enemy" in front of the settlers.
I overcame those images long ago. I saw the poverty and sorrow with my own eyes and felt a deep shame and betrayal for the lies I had been taught.
 The best education on the subject I have read yet is "The Peoples History of The United States" by Howard Zinn.
Thank you for reminding us of the wastefullness and distruction that "progress" so often demands.
*On a lighter note- My daughter has an adopted native grandmother who we both love dearly!

Rick
product of the westward expansion

Republicans are convinced that government is the problem ... and as the government, they're doing their damnedest to prove themselves right. -Bearpaw

by rickeagle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:50:07 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Thank you. It needed to be said. (4.00 / 6)

Just today my son came home from school and told me the story of Squanto he'd learned in 2nd grade.  I told him about what happened to all the indians afterwards, including his aunt Heidi's ancestors (my half sister)on her fathers side, the Cherokee.  He said he'd have to tell his teacher about that.  I told him she already knows.

We all know, even if we don't want to think about it.  But continuing to teach the children only a small part of the story should stop.  The Native Tribes should have their story told in our schools as well.

Drop by my blog at Pen's Pages

by Pen on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:03:18 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Don't be so sure (none / 1)

It's entirely possible that your son's teacher does NOT know.  Read how many people here did not.  And this is an educated group.

I don't know what kind of person his teacher is, but if she is a reasonable sort, I wouldn't discourage him from discussing this with her.

The chips are down. Find your outrage.

by sj on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:11:16 AM EST
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with the usual (4.00 / 2)

thank you. thank you very much.

let's watch the whites take more away from you now.

I won't pretend that we're on the winning end. But when did that matter before anyway?

by tommyschoolbruh on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:14:04 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Beg pardon on that second sentence? (none / 1)

what do you mean by it?

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:48:52 AM EST
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What s/he meant was exactly what happened (none / 0)

in this diary after I finally turned in around 3 AM my time; I certainly hadn't anticipated the fiasco that would ensue (I was expecting that diary to slither into the memory hole just like every other one I have written on the same subject without any reference to Sheehan). I am only now going through these comments, and I see that this poster was spot on. I didn't see it coming, but s/he sure did.

"I think the President should look across the country and find the most qualified man, woman, or minority."-Trent Lott

by starkravinglunaticradical on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:25:05 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

We are all on the same side of the trenches (4.00 / 4)

The selfish and myopic lowest common denominator is on a rampage on the other side.

Let's build on our common objectives rather than allowing the bastards to divide and conquer us.

This dialogue can only happen here.

Here is to you Kossacks!

Together we will prevail.

Dailykos.com; an oasis of truth. -1.75 -7.23

by Shockwave on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:19:26 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Thank you (4.00 / 5)

In my own experience, all of us need wake-up calls, and sometimes they have to be bluntly worded. And sometimes the people closest to us need the most blunt words. The seemingly innocuous phrase, the "I didn't mean it that way" comment -- they often hurt all the worse coming from those who are otherwise on your side. I'm about as far from the PC Police as one can get, but damn,  it hurts; it hurts when people sling phrases around without the slightest inkling of the scars they rip open or the salt they pour in...

Maybe I've just had that kind of day, but your diary moved me, and triggered other emotions I've been feeling since this morning (another story entirely, but somewhat related perhaps).

My situation isn't equivalent to yours. And yours isn't equivalent to mine. But I think there's a commonality.

Are you up for a deal? Here's my proposal; it comes in two parts:

Part one:

Tomorrow I'll be with my family (or, more specifically, my mom and the family she married into the second time around), because it is expected of me. As I usually do on said day, I'll eat the turkey and make the small talk and excuse myself at the earliest opportunity.

But tomorrow, I'll remind the gathered folks that for some it's a day of mourning. And I'll remind them why.

I'll gladly do this if -- if -- the next time you hear someone casually use the term "fag" or "cocksucker" or similarly refer to homosexuality in a derogatory way, you call them out on it in no uncertain terms. And tell them why.

This doesn't assume that either of us don't do so already, of course. It just says that next time around we'll do it specifically for each other.

Part two:

On Friday, I'll be gathering with about a half-dozen of  my most treasured friends, and we will celebrate life and the fact that we know each other and will drink and smoke too much and will laugh a lot and at the end will be delighted to be alive and in each other's company.

Sometime soon, do the same.

And when I mourn tomorrow, I'll think of you. And when you call out a homophobe, think of me. And when I celebrate life with my beloved friends, I'll think of you. And when you celebrate life with yours, think of me.

Maybe I'm a naive idealist. I'll cop to that. But maybe, just maybe, even if nobody else joins us (or even if you don't join me), we can put away a little bit of grief and pain. Just a bit.

-6.00, -6.41

by wilco920 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:23:43 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

This is a very strong diary, well written (4.00 / 3)

and honest and with much to say. I recommend it.

Words and the associated meanings and the feelings attached to them are different for different people.You lay claim to the expression "trail of tears." You are free to do so, and to remind the world of its true meaning to many people. But most words in the dictionary have more than one meaning. Most expressions have various usages. You use the word "indian" knowing that there are no "indians," except in the minds of those Europeans who came to this land. Yet you use it merely as a means to more conveniently communicate with the community that has created that expression so you don't have to explain in detail how it is little more than a group slur on the cultures and heritage of many different tribes.

Communication is a difficult thing. The word "Holocaust" means only one thing to the Jewish community. It does not mean a large fire. It doesn't even mean the destruction caused by a giant volcano. It means just one thing to them. They claim it as theirs because it embodies the essence of all the suffering their people have ever known. Yet it is used by others to describe other terrible events. That's just the way with people. That's just the way with language.

I'm very glad you wrote this diary. In particular I'm glad that you described why the expression "trail of tears" is so meaningful to you and to so many others. But it is that description, that education, that is so very important, that really matters. To others, those words are just sad words, words that describe something they feel. It will always be that way with words.

Know what those words mean in your heart, and in your history, and educate others as you can, keep it important, keep it relevant. But none of us, individually or enmass ever "owns" any words, any expressions.

I am of Irish ancestery. My family left Ireland for North America because they were starving during a potato famine. Unfortunately, in each culture we do have our own "trail of tears" with its own meaning, its own history. But now that I have read this diary, the first one I will think of when I hear those words will be yours.

In the morning I will celebrate the good things I have in my life, not the coming of my forebearers to this land. Peace.

-6.88/-5.64 Right between Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama. Dudes! I am sooo into a like totally awsome place!

by John West on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:28:45 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


I see that Cindy has removed her diary.... Damn. (3.40 / 5)

The trail of tears is very long.

-6.88/-5.64 Right between Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama. Dudes! I am sooo into a like totally awsome place!

by John West on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:54:50 AM EST
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Heym formalist! I have many more comments (4.00 / 2)

on DKos for you to slap a "1" on. Best get busy.

-6.88/-5.64 Right between Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama. Dudes! I am sooo into a like totally awsome place!

by John West on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:58:11 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Ah, formalist, (none / 1)

a "1?" You break my poor sad heart.

-6.88/-5.64 Right between Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama. Dudes! I am sooo into a like totally awsome place!

by John West on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:21:19 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

This is a good example of why... (4.00 / 23)

the Repubs have been winning. They're focussed, while our side spends all of our time sniping at each other and then apologizing and so on in a neverending cycle of talk.
All of the above sentiments about Native American history are well-founded. But did it really do any good to go after Cindy? I don't think so. Fight the common enemy.

by jeffmcm on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:35:14 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


u r right (4.00 / 16)

but i do apologize for offending nice people
it wasn't my intention
i am crucified by the left, by the right, by the center...
(oops, i said crucified!!)
i guess i can't win, but i just keep on plugging away anyway

bring the troops home, now!!!

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:44:35 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Cindy: take a breath (4.00 / 3)

Movement politics is hard.  These sorts of conflicts happen all of the time, because there are many different "correct views" of the same thing and they contradict one another.  Even if you misstep (which I'm not prepared to grant), please don't get down.  You're too important.

I remember reading something by Eldridge Cleaver in college where he said more or less that in his opinion if there was only one Native American left the entire country should be given back to him.  (He would not have said "him or her" at the time.)  There's an illuminating point there.  And there's another "correct view" that maybe 4% of the country would go along with that, tops, and it's politically suicidal for people who want to change U.S. policy to endorse it and alienate themselves from 96% of the voting public.  There's an illuminating point there, too.  Both are right, both incomplete, both worth bearing in mind.

I think the poster does a service by raising important issues about what Thanksgiving means from a Native American perspective.  I think she undermines her cause by "crucifying" (which I'm sure is not how she views it) someone in great overall agreement with her.  But, you know, she's an adult, she can do what she wants.  I just hope that you understand that some degree of conflict, when "correct views" themselves conflict, is inevitable, and you can't be expected to hover over the ground and never step in any of the nasty muck here on earth.  Learn a bit, forgive yourself if you need to, get some restorative and sound sleep, and back tomorrow to healing.  Peace.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:06:14 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


forgive myself? (4.00 / 7)

i have apologized
it is up to starkraving to forgive me
good night

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:09:12 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Good night (none / 0)

and sleep well.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:14:40 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


u sleep well too (none / 0)

thank you

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:24:47 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


you first! (4.00 / 2)

;)

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:30:34 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


LOL (4.00 / 4)

thanks for that
i needed a chuckle!!

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


with all due respect... (2.41 / 12)

...you need to rethink your attitude of victimhood in this thread here. i'm sorry, but nobody here is crucifying you. you cannot simultaneously apologize and then say you're being crucified.

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:24:22 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


good night (4.00 / 1)

i will stop talking now

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:25:17 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


oh, Cindy. (none / 0)

This profoundly sucks. You know it's bullshit, right? It's madness!

I hope you're feeling exasperated and pissed (you'd be MORE than justified) and not doubly blue. If it has gotten to you, I say give yourself permission to blow it off. I mean it--you can discard it from your thoughts if it's bringing you extra pain. You didn't do anything! God! Ya know, not everybody is worth listening to. And that's not elitist. That's reality. That's self-preservation.

Take care, lady :)

Is nothing secular?

by aitchdee on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:15:29 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


If I had "How Dare You, Major Danby" (4.00 / 5)

as the lead recommended diary title, I would certainly feel abused.  Maybe not "crucified," but you have to allow for some poetic license.

Nothing wrong with saying "I'm sorry for what I said" and "now please stop hitting me."

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:39:25 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


With all due respect... (4.00 / 3)

Its called a metaphor, as in,

"a figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity"

I never thought I would find so much stolid literalist fundamentalism on DAILKOS...its far too late for this useless venture...g'night.

by Orwell1984 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:50:57 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


damn right; (none / 0)

my literary sensibilities are offended! (I mean it!)

Is nothing secular?

by aitchdee on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:55:42 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


oh for pete's sake (4.00 / 2)

stop it stop it stop it stop it!

by oregon blue on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:24:02 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


FemiNazi, for crying out loud (none / 0)

Cindy has apologized probably a dozen times by now.  Too damn bad that none of them are good enough for you.  You are apparently on a mission and I'm still not sure of your true motivation other than to beat a dead horse and possibly practice your typing.

And as long as you waltz around here with that FemiNazi moniker, you're unlikely to be taken seriously by many of the purists who you're trying to reach.  Yes, we have heard your reasoning for choosing it, but it certainly isn't too late to change your thinking and change your name, is it?  After all, isn't that really what you're proposing Cindy Sheehan do?  Pot, meet kettle.

by busternjake on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Agree (4.00 / 2)

I agree with this completely.

Do I hate what happened to some of my ancestors? Yes.

But I am concerned about everyone's survival NOW!!!!

Oh, BTW ... I'm part Tsalagi.

by blackthorn on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:55:23 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


No, actually, it isn't (4.00 / 3)

For starters, lately the Repubs haven't been winning shit.

Second, the idea of "Republican focus" is a shibboleth. We see them as the monolithic, unified, implacable enemy because we oppose them. But if you keep your ear well to the ground, the Repubs are pretty well riven with vicious factionalism, often more vicious than our own.

Up until three weeks ago, they were better at winning elections because they were better at scaring the living shit out of voters. But as a party, they are no more focused or unified than we are.

It's just that we prefer to have our internal fights in the cold light of day. Transparency and all. And at the end of the day, nobody gets away with saying nasty things about us but us.

-6.00, -6.41

by wilco920 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:02:17 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Disagree. (4.00 / 4)

Winning a couple governor races and some other important local elections hardly classifies as the republicans "not winning shit" recently. And sadly, most of our momentum has come from the Republicans fucking things up--they've imploded through their own corruption and ineptitude, not necessarily because we Democrats have deftly taken them apart. Look at their recent screw-ups: Iraq, Katrina, Abramoff, Plame. Democrats gained ground mainly by standing back and letting the Republicans do it to themselves.

But again, other than Harriet Miers, where have you seen open Republican infighting? A Senator here or there commenting that Iraq isn't going well? They win because they have the ability to convince their various factions to keep quiet and toe the Rovian party line. They better at presenting a unified public face in the hopes that any differences can be addressed from within while they're in power--instead of those differences tearing them apart and knocking them out of power.

I'm not saying Democrats should ever strive for this Stepford-ish lockstep, but it seems like we're forever the party of competing, mutually exclusive agendas, even when it doesn't need to be that way. Sometimes, with the amount of backbiting and circular firing-squads, you'd think WE were the majority party for the last decade.

"I told them on Inauguration Day. I said look into my eyes: no new enhancements." - President Johnny Gentle (Famous Crooner)

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:30:13 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Disagreeing with your disagreement (none / 0)

And sadly, most of our momentum has come from the Republicans fucking things up--they've imploded through their own corruption and ineptitude, not necessarily because we Democrats have deftly taken them apart. Democrats gained ground mainly by standing back and letting the Republicans do it to themselves.

Precisely the most recent evidence that they are no more organized nor focused than we, which was my entire point.

In your last paagraph, note your own use of the terms "seems" and "you'd think" -- it's largely a matter of perception, not of fact.

Which family is healthier, the one that deals with their own dysfunctions in the open, or the one that keeps them hidden away from the daylight?

-6.00, -6.41

by wilco920 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:35:16 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Disagreeing with your disagreement of..uh... (none / 1)

wait, i lost my place...

But seriously, I don't think the aforementioned meltdown shows a lack of organization, it shows the continuing exposure of their startling ineptitude and corruption. Which Republicans publicly bashed Bush for his Katrina response? Whose footsoldiers continue to attack anyone who questions the Iraq war? Which wingnut talk hosts have ceased attacking Joe Wilson or dismissing Plame's NOC status?

It's not that the GOP has fractured or is publicly infighting--they're still in lockstep, but the public is much more aware that these glaring misdeeds can't be explained away by unified talking points.

I do agree with your comment that it's a matter of perception, though i do not waive my overall disagreement with your disagreement to my disagreement, which itself was disagreeing with...uh...dammit, where was I again? Oh right--of course it's perception, but it seems largely a shared perception. How publicly fractious Dems are may be open to debate, but the lockstep nature of today's GOP is well-known and frequently discussed here. Hell, they don't just admit it, they tattoo it on their asses: Loyalty to Bush Over Everything Else, For He is the Party.

Again, I agree that we do NOT want that level of brainwashing. But it would be nice if we were somewhere in between them and where we are now.

At this point, you can't disagree with me anymore because everyone knows there can only be three disagreement comments between two people at any one time. Sorry. It's science.

"I told them on Inauguration Day. I said look into my eyes: no new enhancements." - President Johnny Gentle (Famous Crooner)

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:49:06 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I must bow to science (none / 0)

You raise good points re: the continuing talking-points lockstep, but as I've mention in various other comments, I'm the eternal optimist -- I guess I just see evidence of a growing McCain-Graham axis (a holdover from South Carolina in '00), and a slightly deranged Trent Lott sharpening his shiv.

Otherwise, I agree that on many other points we're in agreement, and I thank you for disagreeing so agreeably.

-6.00, -6.41

by wilco920 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:11:21 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


bingo (none / 1)

by bruh1 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:45:43 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


My reflex was to rate you down (none / 1)

Instead -- I hear what you're saying, and totally disagree. Look, the diarist didn't put Cindy the person or her activities down. In fact spent a LOT of time carefully avoiding that.

The diarist objected to some words another person used, and went to great lengths to add some education to that.

The whole freeking point of this blog is that people can write in it about things that bug them to educate others. (Which is what just happened.)

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Excellent essay (4.00 / 2)

I think writing while indignant can produce some incredibly clear, insightful pieces.

Yours is that and more.

FWIW, I posted this in reply to Cindy. http://www.dailykos.com/...

After a certain amount of time, I hope that you will be part of creating a tradition of community building here. Despite its difficulty. I hope you will offer Cindy something to help her re-create her feeling of community.

Thank you for listening and pondering.

And again for this essay.

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:45:14 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


allison (none / 1)

thank you for trying to conciliate.
happy holidays.

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:31:47 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Us Seattleites are good that way! (none / 0)

Eternal Independent Thinking for myself since 1972.

by Erevann on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:07:05 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

MOVING (4.00 / 5)

Wilco, Starkravinglunaticradical (could u use a shorter handle?)

Beautiful words, friends.

I did not know some of the things the diarist wrote of but I do recognize much of the backdrop.

Sometimes I easily get caught up in the day to day details of life and lose the big picture.  At times, I believe that is for my sanity, but I can't do so for long.

It's good to be reminded and humbled.  I've been humbled and educated.  And I'm glad of both.

I'd like to say something to the original diarist and Wilco:

Stark, I'd suggest that you consider emphasizing the tragedy in the Trail of Tears rather than the ownership of the phrase, for tragedy is not beholden to one group or another.  Admittedly, certain peoples have had a disproportionate share of it.  While the tragedy is primarily Native American, it is also a tragedy of the collective souls of humanity.  It is a stain on humanity.  I understand that you would not want this historical tragedy to be sullied or worse still diminished by overusage or conversion to a phrase particularly one that inadvenrtantly used.  The concern is that this dissipation of meaning through inadvertant and over use will essentially erase the tragedy from memory.  Please, emphasize its association with the tragedy so that the learning and mourning may echo through eternity, rather than the ownership of a phrase.

Peace unto you.

Wilco, thanks for finding a way of redirecting insult (understandably) and channeling it into positive avenues and education.  Very noble and smart.

Pax, Paix, Shalom, Salam.

by Inverted on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:56:09 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


formalist, why a 1? (none / 0)

I'd like to know why you think I was trolling or what you found objectionable.

by Inverted on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:45:49 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


That's Easy (none / 0)

Why? Because you belong here - unlike formalist.

"You can't say you worked at Perris Valley until you've been fired at least once."

-cdn

"It's not that I hate my country; it's that I love my country so much I can't stand to watch what it's doing to itself." --Walt Whitman

by grndrush on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:16:45 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Fuck you Kossacks! (4.00 / 18)

I just read over the comment thread here. Starkraving's concerns were valid, but what I noticed again and again in the thread is that Cindy was trying to address those concerns and got ignored again and again, while people got on their high horse about how much they agreed with starkraving. Well, shit, maybe Cindy agreed with starkraving, but none of y'all gave her the fucing chance to explain herself. What the fuck is wrong with you people?? Dia-fucking-logue, damnit! I hope you haven't driven her away for good.

Make love not war because love is lovely and war is very ugly, ya know?-U Roy

by Rojo on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:08:20 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


thanks rojo (4.00 / 8)

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:10:30 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


No prob (4.00 / 5)

This makes me sad, but not as sad as the war, so you just keep on keepin' on.

Make love not war because love is lovely and war is very ugly, ya know?-U Roy

by Rojo on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:15:40 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


They have indeed (4.00 / 2)

driven Cindy away for good.  Some days we're just not quite perfect enough, are we?  Poor CIndy, I think this is the first time she's ever been personally attacked by someone half worth listening to.  That always hurts the first few times, but after a while you learn to apologize and move on.  A person's gotta be thickskinned on the internets.  But we're still, I think, her best collective friend.  

Power corrupts. Hey, let's learn it the hard way!

by Bob Love on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:25:53 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Self-censure and move on? (none / 0)

I think you could start an organization based on that idea....

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:42:39 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Sigh and double-sigh. (4.00 / 15)

I don't think anyone who reads this site, most especially Cindy Sheehan, would callously rub salt in the wounds of Native Americans.  To presume that they are is to decide to be offended.  We choose what we're offended by, and the degree.  What might have been a simple redirective comment about what is arguably an insensitive remark blossoms into a frothing tirade, an attack on a grieving mother completely out of proportion with the offense.  Why?  

I'm all for a reasonsed discussion of this subject.    But do you think that families sitting around Thanksgiving dinner cackle in glee and rub their hands together over the terrible fate of the Native Americans?  Attack people that deserve it; there are plenty of enemies without manufacturing more.  For most American families, I'm going to guess that this holiday (whatever its dubious origins) is about family get-togethers and overeating.  And that's about it.  For you, it's obviously something else, and that's a pity.

Do you presume to speak for all persons of Native American descent?  I think that would be ridiculous, although you seem to want to.  I have Native American blood, and you certainly don't speak for me.  

Uncomfortable truth: do you honestly think that any tribe, faction, people, flag, or ethnicity emerges innocent from the blood-bucket of history?  Please tell me you're more sane than that.  Native Americans, like all people, warred with each other.  They participated in callous massacres of their own, if not so well-organized as those that came later.  All peoples have been victimized at one time, downtrodden, torn apart, abused, dispossessed, and marginalized.  You don't have an exclusive license to grief.

You needn't have wasted your evening.  

"Patriotism flourishes in the rear echelon."--Alexander Solzhenitsyn

by Fantomas71 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:10:28 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

I am recommending this diary, but not because (4.00 / 4)

I have the exact same perspective.  This seems like a deeply heartfelt context being shared which a larger audience should consider.

Like others above, my feeling is that language in a mixed cultural environment tends to reuse events, symbols and ideas from various sources for imparting similar notions in other contexts.  I will beat virtual heads into the ground when people attempt to diminish the significance of the Holocaust from a historical perspective related to the millions of people affected, but also easily accept use of that event's name by anyone who responsibly uses it as a pliable term for describing terrible acts done against wide swaths of people in other situations.

Victims and their descendents don't appear to own the "Holocaust" term, but they certainly represent the undeniable truths of that event as originally referenced by using the term, "Holocaust" - the latter can never be taken away from them, regardless of how people use the name of that event as a symbolic term to describe other things which seem horrendous to humanity in their eyes.  I don't think that it minimizes understanding and respect for the memory and truths of the Holocaust - if anything, reusing the term in a more generic fashion seems to help reinforce the notion of how significantly bad the original Holocaust happened to be, and minimizes revisionist attempts to paint it as somehow less than what it was.  I truly feel that, not just playing sides or word-games here.

I an also of the impression that Cindy was sincerely doing the same thing from a cultural perspective, attempting to show how profound and significant her own feelings were in this past year.  It wasn't about 1 son's life vs. millions of lives and their associated cultures, but a symbolic reference - this isn't a contest.  Still, I'm glad that she apologized and sincerely attempted to understand what she was apologizing for.

As much as I sympathize and respect the diarist's feelings and righteous perspective on this matter, I'm torn on how to respond.  Do I now consider "Trail of Tears" a taboo term for me, a white person of European descent, in any context except historical analysis?  Is it only usable by Native Americans in appropriate contexts outside of historical discussions?  I don't know, but numerous questions come to mind, and this helps the diary appear even more worthy of consideration and discussion by a larger viewing - hence, my recommendation.

BTW, like many holidays, my family doesn't celebrate Pilgrims or Europeans coming to this country (and, eventually leading the way for a horrible warring against the Native Americans who already inhabited the place) - this is a symbolic holiday for appreciating our family and life in general.  No history, just the here and now.  When backward, mythological symbols are brought home from school by our young daughter during holidays such as this, my spouse and I talk about how to "deprogram" the more egregious holiday myths over time.

Christmas is a holiday of generosity of spirit towards friends and relatives for us, nothing more except "harvest"-reaping emulation.  Doesn't mean that we forget the significance of early foundings for various holidays (and, at least in the US, we all try to discern how myth has used to define such things, glossing over inconvenient and oftentimes awful truths), so we just turn these days into something of our own purpose and intent, but along a generally similar theme of their purpose.  This doesn't mean that I don't struggle about the Days of Mourning, since I'm admittedly unsure what I should do with respect to that outside of recognizing its apparent significance.

by wader on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:20:18 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

The author could have made their point (4.00 / 21)

about how we should all give pause to remember the devastation EuroAmericans have wrought upon native Americans without using Cindy Sheehan as a punching bag and grandstanding at her expense.  Shame on you!

Realitybased.Info Editor's Blog at New Reality-cheX.BlogSpot.com

by RealityBasedInfo on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:29:58 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


I agree... (4.00 / 11)

What a great, insightful diary this is, somewhat ruined in my opinion by an unnecessary attack on Cindy Sheehan.

Obviously, you have a great deal of anger about the words Cindy used, but to call her out in this manner smacks of transferance.

Then again, I'm not a big fan of diaries that call out other diarists, so perhaps I'm biased in that regard.  

by Otis29 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:09:27 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


asdf (none / 1)

Not for the first time a progressive with a point to make uses Cindy Sheehan to gain attention.  Remember ANSWER in DC?

(-2.75,-4.77) "Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose." Senator Barack Obama

by Sam I Am on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:18:04 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

My sympathies, but you've been unfair... (4.00 / 29)

I realize I might have an unpopular or minority viewpoint here, but this attack on Cindy strikes me as nothing more than a petty game of "my tragedy is worse than your tragedy so stop comparing them!"  I'm reminded of certain Black leaders who lashed out at GLBT proponents for comparing marriage inequality to segregation.

Newsflash to all oppressed or wrongfully aggrieved Americans: We have more in common than we do in contrast.  And we stand better united than divided over whose victimhood is more compelling any other's.

The exposition of the Trail of Tears was welcome and you have my sympathies indeed.  But lambasting Cindy Sheehan for innocently using a semantic term resonates as melodrama rather than a genuine productive discourse.  

If you take issue with Cindy's terminology, you could have informed her in a more civil and less accusatory fashion.  She is an American hero who has lost a son.  And while I appreciate the advances you've made to educate everyone on the history of Native American oppression, there was no need to villify Cindy Sheehan for what was an innocuous and good-intentioned use of language.  

by BPK on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:39:17 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Bishop Tutu (4.00 / 2)

For what it's worth, I attended a talk by Archbishop Desmund Tutu, one of the architects of the end of Apartheid in South Africa a couple of years ago.  He gave a moving description of the process of Truth and Reconciliation that he was spearheading in that country.  At the end, he turned his attention to the United States.  He said many positive things about our democracy, freedom, legacy, etc.  But then he said that we will always be a damaged country, suffering internal moral pain, until we reconcile and make right the injustices toward the Native American peoples.  You would think that he might have concentrated more upon mistreatment of African Americans, but he identified Native Americans as the most fundamental victims of American injustice, and the source at which the healing must first be addressed.

So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause -- Padme

by dnta on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:04:59 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Copyright your sorrow (4.00 / 2)

Every once in a while I remember that I used to be Cold War liberal. Not interested in radical civil wars. The point was good, the issue is grave - the industrial Western civilization has been on a murder spree, killing or suffocating hundreds or thousands of cultures, languages, customs, communities (most deeply conservative - with a very, very small c - and unenlightened in my view unlike their liberal killer). The way we live kills cultures, the way we have lived has killed cultures. We own the guilt? I am sorry my fellow anti-Republicans and war resisters: I see us all as murderers and victims, we were the killers at the Trail of Tears and we were killed, it was our children that died, our parents, our brothers and sisters. The grief is universal: no-one is innocent and no-one guilty.

by stockholm slender on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:12:24 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Mitukaye Oyasin! Genocides are Owned By All of Us (4.00 / 9)

The victims of genocide do not own the terms of the genocide.  The Holocaust is not a Jewish phenomenon.    The Genocide of the Native Americans is not a Native American phenomenon.  The genocide of the Tutsis in Rwanda is not a Tutsi phenomenon.

Genocide is a human phenomenon.  As a human, we should all be allowed to speak of these things freely.  And more importantly, I don't think it's healthy for any person to try to possess and identify with their own private genocide.  We all own the trail of tears.  I don't have to be of native american blood to know how repugnant the mass execution of human beings is.

Sorry, but I completely disagree with the tone and some of the content of this message.  

Mitukaye Oyasin!

by The Bulldog Manifesto on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:20:35 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Oh please... (4.00 / 5)

This whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.  Let's all thank Stark for helping us become aware of what this Holiday REALLY initiated all those years ago (hint: its not mass gluttony!), but let's stop making him a hero for over-reacting to an honest woman's honest mistake.

This is a holiday that's obviously a painful time of year for Stark, and I don't mean to condemn how frustrated he must get at all the "Pilgrims and Indians are friends!" hoopla during this season.  But, lets be serious.  Not all his dogs are barking on this issue in particular.

In his first comment, he takes offense to Stein's use of the term "Indian," after which he posted a rant crucifying Sheehan for her highly debate-able "misuse" of 3 words, during which he sputtered out the word "Indian" numerous times instead of "Native American," and now he's suggesting offense again at "the Indian cause."

I certainly hope I misread this comment.  But let's not lose sight of the main fact: he has lost our support from one of our most public and heartfelt sympathizers, and she will probably not be back here.  Sometimes we have to look at the big picture, folks, and most of the time that picture isn't a portrait.  

And yes, I used the word "Crucify" in my comment, even though it could likely offend devout Christians who object to my application of the term onto a woman who has little to do with Jesus Christ, our most favorite victim; in fact, she has not been crucified at all, and some historians might object to my marginalization if a brutal punishment applied to tens of thousands of people in ancient Rome and otherwise.

But you know what?  It is an effective word, and it was the right word for me.  Those who have objections are welcome to voice them, and then can promptly shut up, because its not changing the fact that I used the term, and that it felt right to me.  And just because I use it to illustrate the case at hand (Stark vs. Ms. Sheehan), doesn't mean I'm not aware of its historical implications, nor that I'm not sensitive to objections.  

But those who would object to the word using these far-flung explanations are missing the point of my comment, and lowering the value of the discussion for all of us.

Sign the petition for an open mid-term convention!

by MadCasey on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:23:40 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


I apologize (none / 0)

I'm sorry for calling "Starkraving" a "he" during that whole rant.  Usually I'm pretty non-gender-specific, but I think the name reminded me of something I would come up with and I, being a man, applied my gender to it.

Anyway my apologies.

Sign the petition for an open mid-term convention!

by MadCasey on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:45:37 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Hold on to your humanity. (4.00 / 4)

If we have no peace it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.--Mother Teresa

Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.-Einstein

by fooj on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:34:10 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

By the way, Bill O'Reilly (4.00 / 6)

if you think we're good with Thanksgiving, just wait until you see what we do with Christmas!

Just joking.  Good night, everyone.  Be kind to one another.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:45:47 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Sorry, had to comment again... (4.00 / 6)

And say that there are two kinds of sensitivity here.  The first kind is that to wrongs done by some of our ancestors on other of our ancestors, and the sensitivity to the kind of world we live in because of those wrongs.  We could all use more of it.

Quite apart from that, there is another kind of sensitivity, which this diarist has none of.  It's the kind of sensitivity to a grieving mother who has lost a son in the very recent past and is about to struggle through one of her first holidays without him--a holiday that is especially about family and sitting together and seeing people you love.    

What this diarist is doing is analogous to getting insanely angry at something said during a stranger's funeral, standing up and demanding an apology from the family.  That's honestly very close to what is happening here, and the diarist should be ashamed of themselves.  It's Cindy Sheehan that deserves the apology here.  

If I were at said funeral, and I saw the described behavior, I'd say (mixed in with the profanity), 'My goodness, that insensitive bastard must be very desirous of attention.'  

Well, it appears to have worked, no?

"Patriotism flourishes in the rear echelon."--Alexander Solzhenitsyn

by Fantomas71 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:46:04 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


This is what happens when (4.00 / 2)

people don't have to get up early the next morning.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:50:18 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


yes, exactly... (4.00 / 3)

more like this, please.

I would argue that even if Cindy had not lost a son that this diary would still be way over the top/outrageous. There's just no defending it.

Reveal yourself, ravingcrazywhateversoandso!  And apologize to Ms. Sheehan for your outrageous remarks!

[I just realized that it can be difficult/impossible to determine when someone is kidding around or not.  The raver need not reveal themselves, but an apology is appropriate.]

Join us for the Terrorism Walk!

by shmooth on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:22:43 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


It just amazes me... (4.00 / 2)

The insensitivity of the sensitive.

"Patriotism flourishes in the rear echelon."--Alexander Solzhenitsyn

by Fantomas71 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:23:10 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


a narcissistic blowhard (4.00 / 6)

In  another thread several days ago, I called starkraving "the biggest narcissistic blowhard I've ever seen".  She had attacked me because I said I'm a shamanic practitioner and that I've studied Native American culture and spirituality for many years.

From this she deduced that I was posing as a "medicine woman" and was tring to co-opt Native American spirituality for my own.  Neither of which is true.  But of course she didn't know that, because she wasn't interested in listening, only lecturing.  She said something like "What makes you think I want to hear what you have to say?"

For the record, the term "shamanic practitioner", as opposed to "shaman" (which isn't even a Native American word, but thought to be Siberian), is specifically used by people like me who have been trained in certain traditional methods but who are not part of an indigenous tribe.  The term is intended to show respect for the traditional role of the "shaman" or "medicine person" in the indigenous people's society.  As it happens, I've studied many other forms of shamanism and animistic spirituality besides Native American.  My own practice is inspired as much by the teachings of British and European shamanic practitioners as it is by Native American traditions.  But I didn't bother explaining all this to starkraving because I knew it would fall on deaf ears.  She doesn't call herself "starkravinglunatic" for nothing.

New Orleans will never die

by hrh on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:51:06 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Thank you (4.00 / 3)

For sharing your experience with her.  My read of the situation is that, holiday stress being what it is, our diarist found herself in envy of the immense and justified outpouring of love and support for Cindy Sheehan, and found a way to gather attention.   Like we say who work in the field of mental health, even negative attention can be good attention if that's what you crave.

I agree that the gift of reflection is not one that this diarist seems to possess, and it's pretty clearly all about her.  I am waiting for an apology to Cindy Sheehan, but I doubt we will get it, personality disorders being what they are.

"Patriotism flourishes in the rear echelon."--Alexander Solzhenitsyn

by Fantomas71 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:27:16 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


yes (none / 1)

and in my 15 years on the internet I've seen a LOT of this kind of behavior, much more than in face-to-face interaction.  Not just the usual "troll" scenario, where someone makes an inflammatory remark just to cause an argument - but this kind of elaborate, lengthy self-dramatizing session.

I don't know what the causes are - if the medium of online communication somehow aggravates this, or if it attracts this kind of person, or if it's a combination of both.  But it's a big problem.  I've seen it rip apart online communities and drive valuable contributors away permanently.

And I think you're right - no apology to Cindy will be forthcoming.  I only hope that Cindy knows she did nothing wrong.

New Orleans will never die

by hrh on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:01:42 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Setting the Standard (none / 0)

I think everyone should consider before they post a comment (particularly a personal response): Would I verbally say this to the person to whom I'm criticizing- face to face?  

This diary is IMO irresponsible, unnecessary (in getting the point across), and ostensibly counterproductive. That stark takes such  offense to what is often used as a metaphor for profound grief does come across as inconsiderate and cruel.

Most Americans are very aware of the genocide of native Americans, and certainly we liberals sympathize.  But to personally attack Cindy, a woman of immense bravery, at this time of terrible loss, IMO, is mean spirited.

I do think the diarist should apologize to Cindy.  

And yes, if stark were here in my presence, I would say this to his/her face.

by rlharry on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Let's be fair (4.00 / 5)

I didn't get to read Cindy's diary before it was removed, but from what I gathered here Starkravinglunaticradical doesn't believe that Cindy was intentionally trying to be disrespectful. This is a great diary that I wish were more focused on the reason Cindy's comment was inappropriate, rather than on criticizing Cindy for making, what appears to be, an honest mistake.

I'm 1/8th Cherokee myself and I too lost relatives on the Trail of Tears, but I'm not going to criticize Cindy for making an honest mistake and particularly not when I know that she wouldn't approve of my ancestors fate. We have to be more understanding of others when they make a mistake, and point it out politely, because we're only hurting ourselves when we spend too much time criticizing one another for making honest mistakes.

Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

by rogun on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:50:30 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Jesus motherfucking Christ (4.00 / 12)

I wake up to this?

Can't wait until the entire recent diary list is flooded with every angle of the latest dKos meta-meltdown.

Sometimes the jokes write themselves. Sometimes they run for President.

by Sixfortyfive on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:03:45 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Heh (none / 0)

Savior of the Democratic party to irellevant pile of crap in a year.  That's my DKos!

www.mrtourguide.com/plog

by BrodyV on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:20:11 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Please Read.... (4.00 / 3)

Please read THIS POST and RECOMMEND IT!!

by The Bulldog Manifesto on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:09:12 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

How Dare You (4.00 / 4)

Starkravinglunatic  is a major troll.  

The future ain't what it used to be. Yogi Berra

by x on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:16:44 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

What's your fucking problem? (4.00 / 9)

Would it have been impossible for you to share the meaning of Thanksgiving without tearing Cindy Sheehan a new one?

What the fuck is wrong with you? You can't tell me you didn't see this clusterfuck of dKos drama coming long before you hit the post button.

Sometimes the jokes write themselves. Sometimes they run for President.

by Sixfortyfive on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:21:37 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


the drama only happens... (none / 1)

... because we let it.

but the damage has been done, cindy deleted her diary, and who knows if she'll even want to bother sharing her thoughts with us next time.

this never should have happened.

i wish she'd re-post it.

and i wish there were some way of letting her know that the majority of us want do hear what she has to say and don't want her to be dissuaded by fear of someone laying some p.c. guilt trip on her.

by yellowdoggie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:25:08 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Ugh. I'm done. Just had to get that out of the way (none / 0)

Cindy's sharp enough to know that we care. So I doubt that it's a terribly big deal.

I just don't see how we keep making this same mistake over and over and OVER again! Sheesh. Coulda took the opportunity to correct an honest mistake with constructive criticism but the whole damn thing always snowballs. Never fails.

Just needed to put my one quick three-line explosion in and I'm done. I'll be laying low and waiting for the mess to sort itself out this time.

Sometimes the jokes write themselves. Sometimes they run for President.

by Sixfortyfive on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:30:34 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


A-fucking-men {n/t} (none / 0)

"It's not that I hate my country; it's that I love my country so much I can't stand to watch what it's doing to itself." --Walt Whitman

by grndrush on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:29:55 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Chillin (4.00 / 2)

We tend to personalize our own misfortunes when compared to the misfortunes of others. Throughout my life, I have lost immediate family members, been witness to countless sufferings, and have seen things that wake me up at night from the reality of the dreams. One person's suffering bears the weight of the world on their shoulders. It matters not whether your family or your nation suffers. The demon is in the suffering. Though I realize starkravinglunaticradical was trying to make a point to a white woman who probably did not know the origins and the meaning of those words, a simple 2 sentence statement would have sufficed without all the venom and the need to humiliate someone who did not mean Native Americans any harm or insult. The diary needed to be written, but not written as a backhand slap at Cindy Sheehan. But then, I guess it is now in our nature to try to punish each other.

by tazz on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:07:31 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Robert Jensen spoke to this issue (4.00 / 5)

several days ago.  I read his take, and after reading this one, I must say that I find Jensen's more persuasive. And I say this as one who needs educating about Native American issues and greivances.  

Righteous anger has its place, I suppose, but anger almost always is connected with blame.  And blame is holding someone else responsible for not getting what one wants.  

If this is true, then what does the diarist want?  What is the need represented by the anger that seeps through the words?

What exactly is it that Sheehan is responsible for?  Is she symbolic of my own ignorance?  Does the diarist want Sheehan (and me) to wake up?  

The alternative is

And if so, to what?

How does the anger help the diarist get what the diarist needs?  And is Sheehan able to meet that need?

It seems to me that this communication is a form of violence itself.  Violent communication rarely works to change behavior.

The alternative is non-violent communication.

by bosuncookie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:23:34 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Robert Jensen spoke to this issue (4.00 / 2)

several days ago.  I read his take, and after reading this one, I must say that I find Jensen's more persuasive. And I say this as one who needs educating about Native American issues and greivances.  

Righteous anger has its place, I suppose, but anger almost always is connected with blame.  And blame is holding someone else responsible for not getting what one wants.  

If this is true, then what does the diarist want?  What is the need represented by the anger that seeps through the words?

What exactly is it that Sheehan is responsible for?  Is she symbolic of my own ignorance?  Does the diarist want Sheehan (and me) to wake up?  

And if so, to what?

How does the anger help the diarist get what the diarist needs?  And is Sheehan able to meet that need?

It seems to me that this communication is a form of violence itself.  Violent communication rarely works to change behavior.

The alternative is non-violent communication.

by bosuncookie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:34:58 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Please change your title (4.00 / 6)

Please change your title to something that doesn't lambast Cindy Sheehan.

I can't think of anyone who is less of a symbol of hatred towards Native Americans than Cindy Sheehan.

I mean, your feelings are legit, and I am grateful for the history lesson.  But Cindy Sheehan?  Honestly...

In a world where we have skinheads, active KKK memberships, and a White House that wages war against people he calls 'uncivilized,' why do we need to make the one person who has dedicated her life to peace into our symbol of a forgotten genocide?

Your feelings are important, but I just think re-branding Cindy Sheehan is the wrong way to go, here.

Why not take her name out of the diary title and put in someone who is an actual symbol of the type of concerns you describe.

Thanks for considering my request.



Check out Frameshop

by Jeffrey Feldman on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:35:52 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Groan..... (4.00 / 9)

I'm rather indifferent to Cindy Sheehan in many ways, although I appreciate what she is trying to do.  I've not posted on any of her diaries or expressed my personal feelings toward her in any way.

Having said that, though, I have to say I feel sorry for her today after reading this misguided and wholly noncontributory tirade.  

Way to foment anger and divide normally allied people aiming to accomplish good deeds.  Good job.  

Jesus + Fetus = SCOTUS (math by Jon Stewart)

by lightiris on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:51:56 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

That ol' sense of dread (4.00 / 15)

I read stark's diary this morning and felt that old creeping dread rising up in me.

I, like her, am Anishinabeg. Unlike her, apparently anyway, I choose to think a couple of ways: One, I stopped long ago from drinking the water of what white folks think about Indian matters, a stance that's liberated me from a lot of anger, and, two, I try never to rant at good-hearted people and potential allies. As progresives, we can't afford to lose allies. Some folks miss the mark when they speak about issues I care deeply about, some go over the top in their anger and some are just stuck in their ways and will never see it.

So, I won't rant at her.

But, a couple of things: I don't own any piece of the English language any more than I own the history of the tsalagi people. It's their trail, their history, their righteous anger if that's what they choose to so with it. I only know that when I pray to the Creator in English, I first apologize because I can't fully express myself in Anishinabemowin. I also know that the Anishinabeg, like everyone in Indian Country, have issues that far transcend getting white people to feel guilty over what's happened on this Turtle Island.

I have, like nearly everyone now in IC, Euro ancestors. I acknowldge that part of me and celebrate it, too. My family has gained much from feasting together on this day and that's all to the good. And celebrating Thanksgiving has never erased what we know about our own past; it only strengthens it. When we sit down together later today to feast, we will begin with a prayer. Miiwech Gitchi Manidoo miyashiin mino bimadijiwiin. "Thank you Creator for this beautiful life."

It lifts us up and keeps debilitating anger in check to say that as often as possible and especially today. I can't help the people when I'm pissed off at others, especially my allies, and the times that I have gone over the top, I've done more harm than good. I am many things, but, like everyone here, I am sometimes a teacher and a student. That's how we move forward.

I hope whatever you choose to do today, and that includes you my sister stark, makes your heart glad and your family strong. Ya hey, I have said this.

by megisi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:53:08 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

FREEDOM (4.00 / 3)

I'm of Scotish decent, should I make a similar post on St. Patricks day???
If you have an issue with the treatment of native Americans in the past and present, and you have all the right to, focus your energy in the right direction.

Let us all give Thanks
MikeChiz

by MikeChiz on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:05:06 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Kudos to all (4.00 / 2)

Your diary has effectively educated many people even though it comes off as an attack on Sheehan for the use of a precious metaphor. I just thanked her again on her eliminated diary and had no idea what she wrote until I read your diary. I do not think she should have censored herself though, that is a tragic consequence to your method for opening eyes on this day of thanksgiving.

I'm a German Irish Welsh Minnesotan living in Vermont where, of all place, the Abenaki have again been denied recognition of their existence. Way back when one of my first documentaries was called "The Sioux Conflict Of 1862." The doc actually led a movement that changed an event that was origanally called by historians, "The Sioux Uprising of 1862."

To make a long story short, the film was about the largest mass execution by hanging of native Americans in US history. The natives had placed an X indicating their guilt for a war that ensued over a white woman's attack on a few starving natives who had taken some eggs from her barn. People were killed but of course it was all treated like the "savages" had dared to try to survive on the land that was swindeled from them in MN for some blankets that ended up being pox filled--after the winter weather ended.

Well, the natives signed on the dotted line with an X, supposedly by themselves, and essentially admitted guilt for defending themselves against the white man uprising, and in Mankato, MN they joyously built a huge platform with 39 (if my memory does not fail me) nooses, the crowd of "civilized" whites gathered for the show, and the timing was perfect: 39 natives swinging together in the wind of their own native land by the neck, gasping for the air of their ancestors, on their own land, with aliens rapt in funeral amazement (to borrow from Jim Morrison) as they probably started to wonder who in the hell was going to bury all that savage skin. I doubt they did it themselves, but I also doubt they got a proper native funeral.

Anyhow, I can't comment on Cindy Sheehan's use of the trail of tears phrase because she was compelled to censor herself, but I'm pretty sure her intention is to keep the history books clean with respect to those who would conquer other people's without any regard for their culture and traditions that far outlast the 200 years that America seems to have been able to last. The jury is out on how long the empire will last, but it seems clear that the religious fanatics are out to vainly make sure they get to die by spurring on their own private Armegeddon. (Winona LaDuke once told me there is no word for that in the native tongue).

For what it is worth, peace to you all, and you Stark, on a day of Thanks that there are people like Sheehan and Stark who have the courage to set the record straight as much as possible.

History is too important to let it be revised by nutjobs like Bush.

I hope I can do the movement justice when my film is finished.

heath

Directing Your Grassroots Movement Movie at thegrassrootsmovie.com

by deantv on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:14:01 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Mourning? (4.00 / 8)

Your remarks regarding your personal sacrifice are abstract in the extreme. Thanks for the history lesson and all, but it was unethical of you to bring in someone else's name on a totally unrelated topic, resulting in that person removing their highly worthwhile diary, for fear of giving offense.

You had no reason to mention Cindy Sheehan in your diary, let alone your title. And to presume that Cindy Sheehan intended offense, when your diary claims to be an attempt to undo generations of cultural brainwashing, is pretty unfair.

How denegrating others advances your point of view is a mystery to me. In the meantime I will only point out that her brand of activism gained her national attention, and an audience with the President, whereas I am unsure of what accomplishments you have to show for your brand of activism, other than a high number of comments in your diary.

Intelligent Designer Laments Lapse in Intelligence

by mrblifil on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:14:23 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Wow (4.00 / 13)

You're definitely allowed to express your point of view, but I have to say this in rebuttal:

I am also of Native American descent, and I really don't see what the big deal is if someone uses the term "Trail of Tears" to elicit an emotional response.  Maybe that's just me.

More importantly, going off on Cindy Sheehan for using a phrase does nothing to solve those problems you mentioned that Native American communities face today.  If you had written a diary just about those problems, and how the DKos community could help solve them, I'd be writing a comment praising you.

Also, sure it was "our" land before Europeans immigrated here, but whose land was it before that?  Didn't our ancestors also immigrate here?  I understand your desire to preserve and defend our culture, but you also have to put things in perspective...

by onetwostep on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:18:51 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


wow, we had the same reaction, lol. ;-) n/t (none / 0)

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." -- John Stuart Mill

by Auntie Mame on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:44:15 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I have to disagree with your rebuttal. (none / 0)

At least in part.  Here's why.  

Diaries on such topics as you suggest are widely ignored on dKos.  Petulant fits are more successful at getting attention, and eliciting discussions.  If this had been a polite diary about problems in Indian country, I'll bet you money that it woulda had 10-20 comments and 10-20 recommends.  Tops.  It certainly wouldn't have made the Rec List.  A bit of a weakness in the dKos community, methinks.

Not everyone is fond of the "ranting" style, including myself.  But, for better or worse, it does seem to be effective here.

-8.63, -5.28

by Land of Enchantment on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:29:53 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Wow. (4.00 / 4)

I just read the original over at michaelmoore.com.

Obviously, Ms. Sheehan was using the metaphor of walking a sorrowful path. Just as obviously, she used "trail of tears" because it is a phrase that a)invokes that image and b)most people have a general idea of what it means. Yes, she used an easy metaphor. She's not a professional writer, and you really ought to cut her some slack. She didn't deserve a diatribe like that.

It's too bad that you couldn't have tempered your anger when writing. If your goal is to educate well-meaning people, it would have been far more effective.

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." -- John Stuart Mill

by Auntie Mame on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:42:31 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

How Dare You? (4.00 / 11)

"Respect means listening until everyone has been heard and understood, only then is there a possibility of "Balance and Harmony" the goal of Indian Spirituality."

"Dave Chief, Grandfather of Red Dog"

Stark, your diary is true. Everything you say is true. But to use Cindy Sheehan to communicate that message is all wrong, imo, and I believe you owe her an apology.

The title of this diary should be changed.

You have to know she meant no harm or disrespect to the Indian people. You have to know that.

OTOH, your outrage is perfectly legitimate. I'm outraged with you and have been since the 1970s when I read Dee Brown's book. I read Native American poetry and literature because of my intense interest in your people and their history. I share your outrage. I am only a white person with no experience, but you're fighting with the wrong person. Cindy is not the enemy.

I can only pray that we continue to move forward to enlighten those of the current problems facing the Indian community. A LOT needs to be done, and we have to get someone like George out of office who only hurts your cause... but fight them, Stark, not someone like Cindy for using "trail of tears."

In the end, though, I want to say that your diary SHOULD be here today. I am ashamed of my country for what they did. I'm also ashamed of my country for what they are doing now.

I just wish you hadn't used Cindy to make your most valid point. And I'm sorry for the very intense personal loss that you suffered. :(

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." -- Sinclair Lewis

by Dunbar on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:01:17 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Delete this diary (4.00 / 5)

as Cindy has removed her entire diary. A mistake, as far as I'm concerned. Cindy reads her comments, that's all you needed to do. Clearly no offense was meant by her. Do you really think attack diaries are going to make people already sympathetic to the plight of Native Americans any MORE sympathetic?

by waitingtoderail on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:13:50 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

This whole thing is just dumb (4.00 / 10)

I've pondered for an hour over whether I want to jump in on this, and finally decided that I need to, because the navel-gazing is driving me crazy.

I don't doubt the sincerity of Starkraving's pain, and I think that many of the points she makes are ones that deserve to be addressed and considered with great respect.

But I'm not sure you see just how much of a disservice you're doing to your cause by behaving the way you are.

You've stated repeatedly that you believe that it was not Cindy's wish to offend you. If that's so, then why the inflammatory "How Dare You" title? Why don't you now change it, if you truly believe that it wasn't her intention to offend?

Do you realize that you've missed a tremendous opportunity to find commonality on these subjects? At the very root of all of this, both you and Cindy have been wronged by our government. The details are very different, the motivations different, and the history is different, but the basic truth is that you both have very good reason to be outraged and saddened to what the government has done to both you of you, and to people you love.

Lashing out in the way you have against someone who meant no offense, who has expressed their compassion to your concerns, and who has apologized for the offense she inadvertantly gave does nothing to make people respect you or your cause, as righteous as it may be. Because what you are essentially doing here is claiming the exclusive moral right to three words, and launching the rhetorical equivalent of a neutron bomb on one who "dared" use those words without your permission, even though she did not know they were giving offense, and even though she intended (as best I can tell) to evoke the Trail of Tears as a way of articulating her belief that the government was yet again engaged in an unspeakable atrocity at the expense of the lives of people.

You and Cindy both have plenty of right to be mad. But I think you can channel that anger much more constructively by focusing it on those who deserve it, and not at each other. I can think of any number of constructive ways that you can work together to accomplish something productive. I can't think of a single constructive thing that can be accomplished through this pie fight.

We often talk here about circular firing squads. Well, here you go.

Nobody is going to find any healing this way. That much I know.

Please visit my new blog, Progressive Lyceum

by Devin on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:14:03 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Well said. (none / 1)

This diary brings to mind guidance from long ago that we all need to heed.  Whatsoever you do unto the least of my brothers (or sisters) you do unto me.  And if we all took that to heart then we all might be a bit more senstive to how we treat each other be it one sovereign nation doing it's best to exterminate another sovereign nation or one person attempting to share their pain by blasting another for their ignorance in exacerbating that pain.  Trace our lines all back far enough and we are all the same are we not?  We have been heaping tragedy upon us for millennia and will probably continue for a long long time.

by newfie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:25:51 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

though I understand your anger... (4.00 / 5)

about what was done to our people over the last half millenium,

I disagree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Thanksgiving, as did my Native-American grandmother and her family and as do many other Native-Americans right here on Dailykos.

I just want others to know this is not the opinion (about Thanksgiving) of all of us who are of Native descent.

"If you and I think exactly alike, one of us is unnecessary" "at least bleeding heart liberals have one"

by wclathe on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:29:17 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


thanks for the wonderful diary (none / 0)

I'm sorry I missed it when you first posted it.  I would have given it a hearty Recommend.

Your views are in line with the views of all the Native-descended people I know.

New Orleans will never die

by hrh on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:07:40 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Wow (4.00 / 6)

Your diary was educational and reinforced much of what I believe about the treatment of Native Americans, but your comment to Cindy about the wrongness of her "comparing" the loss of one child to that of your people was CRUEL.

by anotherCt Dem on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:34:29 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

I'm sitting smack dab ... (4.00 / 15)

... in the middle of the descendants of the original Trail of Tears. I live here, I teach here, I socialize here.

One man I work with, an elder of extraordinary power and prestige, one of the most loved and respected people here, is traveling today to celebrate Thanksgiving with his one surviving son.

Every few moments, another vehicle driven by another india person passes by on the road out front carrying another deer --- deer hunting season began last week, and many people, including many many many of the descdants of the original Trail of Tears, are taking advantage of a rare day off to go hunting with their fathers or their grandfathers or their sons or even their daughters and mothers or their cousins or their neighbors or whoever.

The community center down the road is hosting a huge dinner today, complete with singings.

If I don't get out of here soon to go to my own Thanksgiving two hours away, people --- many Indian --- will start coming by bringing me pieces of pie, slices of cake, plates of turkey.

Methinks you generalize in the classic Pan-Indian style of those outside the community, IOW.

As someone who grew up with this culture, and who lives and works in it, I know for a fact just how many of the original descendants of the Trail of Tears love Thanksgiving --- it's a rare day of rest, a way to share blessings with one another, a time to see family and friends and sit a spell.

This isn't to say people shouldn't know about the Trail of Tears. But many don't. It wasn't even taught in the schools here until recent years. And if it's a history which has been repressed that stringently within the community, how can we expect the entire world, including Cindy Sheehan,  to be perfectly versed in it?

Tom Coburn is a Big Fat Jerk

by cookiebear on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:56:23 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Very good comment (none / 0)

and frankly, I think these thoughts deserve a diary.

by Steve M on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:07:17 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

This is the most selfish diary (4.00 / 13)

I have ever read. If you want to write a diary about alll the wrongs that have been perpetrated on the Native Americans by white people, then please do so. But dragging Ms. Sheehan into it is simply a mean, nasy, hurtful, selfish thing to do (as well as a great way to draw attention to your diary).  If she unwittingly said something hurtful in her diary, then you could easily have sent her a private e-mail and/or commented in that diary to bring it to the attention of the public.

The loss of one son IS as important as the losses sustained by the Cherokee's, just like the loss of each and every Cherokee was and is as important as the loss of Jews in Germany and Kurds in Iraq and Africans in the Congo. You can't say "my loss is bigger than yours" to a grieving family member, whether that person is Cherokee or German or Russion or Canadian or modern American or any other nationality.  EVERY loss is a great loss to those who suffer, and to humanity.  It's not about numbers. It's not a contest.  People don't grieve for the loss of 10 family members more than the loss of one. Grief is all encompassing, no matter the size of the loss.  

If you want to "stand up for your rights", then do so. But don't do so by selfishly denigrating the losses of others.

by dianem on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:06:51 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

I see Cindy deleted her Diary (4.00 / 5)

Starkravinglunaticradical should delete his Diary as well.

Bob Woodward is a White House shill

by ZappoDave on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:08:58 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

This diary (4.00 / 2)

is a disturbing display of people playing Rush Limbaugh.  Where did respect for one another go?  Is your cancer worse than mine?  Did your family suffer more than mine?  

Our world is an ongoing cycle of human predators and devestating violence for personal and political gain.  And sadly, it is well accepted in America.    

But make no mistake, your behavior here - starkravinglunatic - is no better than that of those very guilty souls you abhore for the devestation to the native people of this land.  Cindy Sheehan has no control over you.  You just used her as a convenient target.

Get what you need without being violent to others.  

by bargie23 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:31:19 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Are we going to the game on Saturday night ? n/t (none / 0)

by sasmo on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:34:51 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Chill. Seeya later someplace else (4.00 / 2)

With the deletion of Cindy Sheehan's diary - an incredible example of politically correct self-sacrifice -this whole thread became too damned weird.

"Only poets know how many poems end up as pies."

by DJ Rix on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:37:07 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Cindy took hers down (4.00 / 3)

Maybe you should take yours down too.

-5.50, -5.69   I'm Gandhi who happens to own a Machine Gun !!

by Stink Tank on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:12:41 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


I totally agree. (none / 0)

no text

America: It's a good IDEA for a country ...

by Tony Seybert on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:24:26 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Not true. (4.00 / 12)

A really, really good lie is one covered in a patina of truth and it doesn't matter whether that lie is told with malicious or innocent intent.  The lie I refer to is the claim that North and South America, or at least the parts claimed by SRLR, are Indian Land.  Not true.  They are no more Indian, than they are European or Asian or African.  It is a disservice to call them Indian Lands when the Native Americans (a more appropriate term than "Indians") occupying them now or in the past, displaced others in order to occupy them.  In that regard, Native Americans have no more right to noble outrage than those that they dispersed before them when they were "pilgrims" themselves or when they took over other tribes' areas through war.

The problem with outrage is that there is only one kind that is valid, and that is "holy" or pure and unsullied by self-interest.  Outrage is only noble and holy when it is expressed on the behalf of all mankind.  Individual or group rage is watered down by selfishness and loses some of it's raison-d'etre:  My Scots blood tells me that I have the right to be angered at what Edward Longshanks and the English did to my people and how they took my lands and prevented my people from taking other lands in the South.  My Irish blood claims that I have the right to be outraged by what the English AND 19th century Americans have done to my people in treating them as animals.  My English blood claims that I have the right to be outraged by the French curs that took my land in 1066 and couldn't even speak my language while they held me (or my forebears at least) in subjection.  My French blood boils in rage at the thought of the injustices committed by Julius Caesar and his Germanic mercenaries who stole my native lands, and ensured their future control by raping our women and imposing their "culture" on my peoples.  I am incandescent with rage when I think about my ancestors in middle Germanic Europe who were slaughtered, subjugated, raped, tortured and otherwise discommoded by the Celts who later went on to conquer France, England, Scotland, Ireland, etc...  Even my Native American Micmac blood did something to displace something somewhere.  It never ends, and every layer of humanity that is covered by another layer of "humanity" claims that it has the right to be outraged by the civilization that came after it.  To continue to do so when one understands the nature of our cultural history (as humans) is disingeneous and/or selfish at worst and naive at best.  Any way you look at it, it is not noble or holy or justified in any way.  It's just life and it's the same for everyone.  It doesn't make SRLR's pain any more intense than mine or yours or your 3rd grade teacher's.

Epilogue: My Celtic ancestors had a grand time sweeping across Asia and Europe to be where they are now.  My Teutonic and Slavic ancestors really enjoyed themselves sweeping west and south to overrun western Europe.  My Gallic/Nordic ancestors rightfully displaced the heathen in England, Ireland, Scotland, and North America.  My Irish and Scots ancestors mixed with, mated with, and married with the Picts and Brits that were there before them which makes THEM my ancestors as well.  So here I sit, a Canadian mongrol invader sitting in California, outraged by your outrage.  How does it feel for the shoe to be on the other foot America ? Eh ?

Eddie
...DianeM's immigrant, land-overrunning, culturally barbaric, insensitive husband...

by dianem on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:15:25 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Well put (none / 0)

by Homer Sampson on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:22:31 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Best Comment of the Day (none / 0)



by far.

-9.63, -7.03 Rage, rage against the Lying of the Right

by Maryscott OConnor on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Kick ass comment (none / 0)

I love your perspective. I'm a mongrol too. I'm torn on which group to hate and with which group to march in their parades [snark]

by agentcooper on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:17:56 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Wow ... (4.00 / 2)

Just wow. I am sorry for your pain but I don't think that Cindy would have intentionally phrased something in a way to cause you to hurt. She is not the ENEMY.

by Alizaryn on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:19:50 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Disagree (4.00 / 4)

"You are on Indian land, Cindy Sheehan. You are on Indian land. All of you. You are on Indian land."

We go wrong when we start thinking the earth is anybody's land. We are all squatters, and the land belongs to no one. History is rife with one people taking over another people's lands, then naming them their own. When the original humans came to North America, within 1000 years they had killed every last huge non-human mammal. Couldn't one argue the land was also the large mammal's? The land belongs to no one, and everyone. We all must share. The history of what was done to the Native Americans is of course, beyond tragic. I see no reason to use that fact to go off on a kind-hearted, well-intentioned, brave woman like Cindy Sheehan.

by Homer Sampson on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:20:51 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Counterproductive (4.00 / 4)

Your diary could have been so much more.  You could have educated people about the atrocities carried out against the Native Americans.  Instead the information you provide is couched in an unfair criticism of good person.  So sad.  So counterproductive.

What was done to the Native Americans was done generations ago.  The vast majority of current Americans are not even descendants of the colonists that committed atrocities against Native Americans.

Does that mean that what was done was any less wrong?  No, of course not.  But it does mean that it offends any sense of fairness to berate Americans of today for those wrongs.  The vast majority of Americans today and their ancestors had absolutely no connection with what was done to the Native Americans.

Educating people about history is a noble pursuit.  Lecturing people in a condescending tone that implicitly blames them for things they had nothing to do with is offensive.

In my opinion, this diary crosses the line into offensive.  It's too bad, because a simple educational diary would have accomplished so much more in changing minds and hearts.

by DemUnity on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:23:11 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Counter-intuitve, counter-productive (4.00 / 3)

You have many legitimate grievances, which includes that so much of your story is unknown by the average American, who, as with so many other things, takes their life of privilege for granted. Because of this I'm granting you a pass.

I won't, however, commend you on this brutal, mis-directed and worse than pointless hatchet job. Forgive me, there is no pun intended. In fact, that you have so many well-founded grievances makes your attack that much more ridiculous, childish and meaningless. Some well-spoken but forceful words might have engendered a great deal of discussion and support, but what you have instead done is taken the focus off of the issues you supposedly want addressed, and put it firmly on your stupidity and venality in targetting a high-profile victim who is innocent of everything other than being of this culture.

We should feel shame at the ongoing brutality done in our name, especially to native americans who have never had redress for the multitude of wrongs they suffered. Instead of guilt, however, your obnoxious attack has engendered anger towards you and sympathy in particular to Cindy, who is apparently likely to be victimized by individuals of all political stripes. Now it is you who should be feeling shame. Shame on you.

The "starkravinglunatic" is evident. But I see nothing that says "liberal" here.

"...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, Act II, Scene ii.

by thingamabob on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:31:20 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


For some reason... (none / 1)

I read your handle as "starkravinglunaticliberal".

Sorry to have erred, but glad about the actual name.

Time for you to write a "mea culpa" diary?

"...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, Act II, Scene ii.

by thingamabob on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:35:34 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


no, no, no please! (none / 1)

criminy no don't encourage her to write anything else.

Not that I don't think she could have anything useful to say, I'd bet she does, but she can't do it in less than 10,000 words. Proust would have trouble finishing a comment/diary

by agentcooper on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:32:59 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

If any Republicans (4.00 / 10)

stumble onto this diary, they've found an issue to divide us in 2006.
Here are three words that cannot be misinterpreted: Worst...Diary...Ever.

Not because of your beef with a phrase that was written with no intent to offend ANYONE. You verbally abused and took advantage of someone in the public eye who is doing nothing but positive things in a dark age.  Shame on us all.

No act of peace is ever wasted. peacepositive always.

by peacepositivemike on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:33:43 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


yep (4.00 / 2)

worst diary ever.  period.

No American left behind - in civil rights, in health care, in the economy.

by JLFinch on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:52:06 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Thanksgiving Buzzkill (4.00 / 3)

aside, I'm not all jumpin' up and down about what happened to the native Americans at the hands of the (then) Europeans. I can't recall any white gals or girls who derive pleasure from that part of our history either.

I try not to listen to Rush Limbaugh but I suspect he might be one of the few white guys who might've approved of what happened.

But this did cause me to think about something I hadn't before: Let's pretend for a minute that the first Europeans came here and were nice guys and girls. They didn't shoot people or bring small-pox infected blankets and collect scalps. How do you suppose things would've turned out?

Unfortunately, I suspect, still not well for the native Americans. Why do I think that?

Well pretty much any time in history if you have two peoples from two different lands and one of those groups has superior weapons and technology, well one of 'em ends up the victor in an all-but-inevitable conflict... and the other ends up, well... the loser, unfortunately.

I'm not happy about this but it seems to be par for the course. I suspect that something similar might have taken place (in reverse) if Native Americans had the ships and weapon systems to be able to navigate the Atlantic and come to Europe. Is there any reason to think they would've been benevolent, nice guys?

What if Muslims got to the "New World" first? Would it have been any better? I somehow doubt it.

Does what happened to the American "Indian" say more about mankind as a species (of which they too  are very much a part) than it does simply the white Europeans? I suspect so.

I also suspect there were cruel, sadistic, asshole "Indians" just as there were cruel, sadistic, asshole Europeans. And vice-versa, of course.

I do think that it's safe to say that the white people of European descent - at least the ones I know - do not think of Thanksgiving as a celebration of conquest or grinding a people under our boot. After all that can and has happened to us too. So please don't think of us doing some victory dance around our stuffing today.

Rather it's just the opposite - a celebration of what Abraham Lincoln called "The better angels of our nature" - giving thanks that we're hopefully not homeless, starving or sick as well as helping out those who are.

Maybe we all can't just get along but we have to try, don't we?

by Snud on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:40:56 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Good Guy/Bad Guy Misses Point (none / 0)

The destruction of the "uncivilzed" people in North and South America after the European invasion that started in the 1500's was not the result of a few "bad" guys.  It was the result of government policy.  It was the intention of the Puritans to get rid of the Pequots and other tribes they encountered.  They did this for both a practical reason and an ideological one.  The ideological one is more important.  The Puritans who left England came to North America not for religious liberty but to found a pure theocracy in the Wilderness.  When they got here, they found it wasn't a wilderness but a land populated by several civilized societies who were much better able to survive on this continent than they were.   They killed them to make reality conform to the symbolic universe of the mind they brought with them from Europe.  The Europeans created the wilderness they needed through a systematic genocide than lasted up to 1890.  If George Bush had been President then he would galloped up to the flagpole at Wounded Knee and announced that major military operations were now over.  

We can't change history, but we can sure as hell have an accurate one that includes the self-described histories of the native peoples that fought against European expansion and those that were brought here against their will in the holds of European slave ships.  

As Americans we should know who Totanka Yotanka and Tashunka Witko are (even if I can't spell their names exactly right) as well as Peltier, Banks, and Means.  

I disagree with starkraving on the Trail of Tears.  Cindy didn't demean the real Trail of Tears.  And, it's ultimately counter-productive and wall-building to claim that one's grief is superior to another's.  Within history, we must deal with one another as concrete experiencing human beings.  And all our experiences are equivalent.  If we can't transcend our own grief or rage to be able to understand that someone else's grief is just as real to them as ours is to us, then we will have no end to the ills that beset us now.

"The unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates. "Sure it is." Dubya. Because "It's good to be Da King." Mel Brooks

by sww92498 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:33:41 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

You ruined the perfect diary (4.00 / 14)



By making it about Ms. Sheehan.

Because it's not about her. It may have been INSPIRED by her words, by your reaction to her words... but what could have been an instructive and evocative polemic was ruined by the distraction.

I'm 1/32 Native American, or so they told me. I'm also at least 1/2 Irish. A lot of Scots. No African, to my knowledge.

So, technically speaking, I guess I'm entitled to anger at the British in a BIG way.

But the thing is, they're all dead. And yeah, maybe my life would have been very different if... and if... and if they hadn't sent my father to Vietnam... and if... and if...

But I live in the world as it is, not as it should have been. I try to make changes I think should be made, and I rage against the injustices, the crimes, the cruelty of humanity to itself, to its fellow carbon-based life forms, to the very earth itself. My rage is righteous, and I spare no evil my wrath.

Here's how the perfect diary would have started:


Cindy Sheehan's use of the phrase "Trail of Tears" brought up a lot of anger and resentment for me. I realise she wasn't aware of how offensive it might be to many Native Americans, so I thought I'd write this diary about the "Trail of Tears" and what it really means -- to me, at least, and to many Native Americans.

Something like that.

The title, the out-of-proportion anger toward Cindy frickin' Sheehan -- what a terrible distortion of what could have been a first class essay -- and discussion.

-9.63, -7.03 Rage, rage against the Lying of the Right

by Maryscott OConnor on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:41:08 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


I agree (none / 0)

And I think it is the same dynamic that leads to the "God Wars" on this site. People who are justifiably angry with certain fundamentalist, nut-jobs who call themselves Christians lash out at Christians on this site because they are here and the fundies are not.

Native Americans are entitled to be angry at the treatment they have received in the US, no question. A diary about it is welcome and we could probably all learn something. But to direct the shitstorm towards Cindy Sheehan, to have her be the target is pure bullshit.

In arrogance the wicked persecute the poor- let them be caught in the schemes they have devised. Psalm 10:2

by chicagochristianleft on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:55:14 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Excellent advice! (none / 1)

I totally agree and the whole thread would have been different. Pity.

Join San Francisco Bay Area Kossacks at our next local event!

by navajo on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:07:05 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Thank you for the comment that... (none / 0)

... best describes what I feel about this diary.

There are other comments too that add more of what I think of this diary, and the subsequent comments, but I will leave it at that, in the interest of not fanning the flames.

Too bad an excellent primer on what the First Peoples of this continent have endured (and I am half Mexican, so we could go indepth on that for pages and pages) is so tainted by the way it was aimed at someone who has worked so hard to right some of what is so wrong about our current time.

Someone below brought up the inevitable thought of what this looks like to the wingnuts that monitor what we do here, and this is not one of our prouder moments. Sorry, to those who think "to hell with what anyone else thinks" but we are fighting for the very life of our country right now... this infighting is not what we need.

Would that this diary could be refocused and reposted so as to really educate all who read it without the animosity toward Ms. Sheehan... it deserves attention in its own right without the sniping.

Misled Into War: A Timeline/DowningStreetMemo.com

by highacidity on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:23:58 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

attacking a friend (4.00 / 5)

for being politically incorrect is absurd. The left is great for attacking itself and getting run over by it's enemies.

What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? unknown

by moon in the house of moe on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:10:22 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Perfect example (4.00 / 8)

Why those of us who have contact with some progressive "issues" and their representatives back the fuck away.

I'm sorry, but Stark, before you jump down the throat of anyone who is ostensibly on your side, check yourself. Are you educating people about the Trail of Tears or are you alienating people who would be your allies by denigrating someone?

Not everyone loves to be yelled at for transgressions they didn't know they made. And some of us find it extremely off-putting to watch good-hearted people get attacked, and especially when it is tangentially connected to THE LOSS OF HER SON. Her kid was killed! Her SON.

Gawd, this is exactly what I wanted to get away from with DKos, which is best when it is at its most pragmatic and INCLUSIVE of all issues, but not particularly weighed down by the baggage of any group.

"God alone knows how many times our bellies, by the refusal of one single fart, have brought us to the door of an agonising death." -- Montaigne

by Spaz Cadet on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:13:42 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Can there be a difference (4.00 / 3)

between 'holocaust' and 'Holocaust'? between 'trail of tears' and "Trail of Tears'?

by tc59 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:23:06 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Out of control (4.00 / 2)

I'm waiting for the angry rant from someone from India, lambasting stark for using misusing the term "Indian" to refer to Native Americans.

Indians are from India. That's a long way away from the USA.

This is political correctness gone berserk.

Let's work together to honour and support each other: Gold Star parents, European immigrants, Native Americans, even Indians (Gandhi was part of our peace movement too!).

We want the war over. We want to stop conquering other people's goddamned countries, killing and enslaving its natives, and stealing its resources.

As a parent, I'll put it this way: I don't care when it started or who started it-- I just want to know who is going to stop it... NOW.

by goatchowder on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:49:12 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

So aggrieved and passionate is this diarist... (4.00 / 5)

at wrongs committed against her by others, yet how quickly she attacks another equally aggrieved and passionate diarist about her plight--though few would doubt harm was intended.  Callous disregard for another's feelings?  Words made personal and loose by rage?  Rank opportunism by using a national hero for one's own cause?  Deliberate sensationalism for its own sake?  

Whatever the explanation, it diminishes you Stark, and what you stand for.   And, in turn, we Kossacks are also somewhat diminished by this exchange.

"Stuck in Mobile with the Memphis blues again"--Dylan

by Alabama Bill on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:57:03 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


make that... (none / 0)

"few would doubt NO harm intended".  How about it Stark? Why deliberately hurt another already in deep pain when you know so very well how bad it already hurts before insult is added to injury?   You certainly succeeded in highlighting your (just) cause--but at what ultimate price to you, Cindy and--at least to some extent-- us?

"Stuck in Mobile with the Memphis blues again"--Dylan

by Alabama Bill on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:26:09 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Howard Zinn's (4.00 / 2)

"A People's History of the United States" is a very good read about some of these topics.

I believe it was Zinn who said - and I'm paraphrasing - that if we knew the real Christopher Columbus and his motives we'd be hard pressed to hold the man in very high regard.

Columbus's goal was wealth and fame. Contrast that with say, Neil Armstrong who after being the first man on the moon all but disappeared from public view.

I suspect too that the original puritans might disagree with you about the native Americans being at all "civilized" - at least as they defined the word. In fact, that was the justification for killing them: If they are not of (our) God then they must be of the devil.

And so it goes... almost 500 years have passed but little has changed, unfortunately. But these are human traits and white people of European descent do not have a monopoly on being assholes; it can happen to anyone.

by Snud on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:08:27 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


D'oh! (none / 0)

Sorry - this was meant to be a reply to my post waaay down below!

by Snud on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:10:02 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Why we lose (4.00 / 2)

This whole depressing diary exemplifies what liberals have done to marginalize themselves for the past 25 years.  If we tried to play into the republicans' plans to divide and conquer us, we couldn't have done a better job.  

If they're reading this now, they're probably having a great laugh - they know as long as we focus our energy on identity politics, what speech is allowed and who's the most victimized, we'll be losers and they can keep on stealing with both hands.

by denise b on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:22:36 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


* [new] You said it (none / 0)

I can even understand that StarkRavingLunatic could've put a comment in Cindy Sheehan's diary expressing that she was hurt by the use of the term "trail of tears." Or she could've written a thoughtful, reflective diary about how she felt about it, one that acknowledged in a serious and sincere way that Cindy Sheehan meant no harm.

But instead it's a childish rant that sounds as if she thinks Cindy Sheehan is the most evil, genocidal, self-absorbed, nasty pseudo-liberal on the planet. It's like bashing someone's head in with a brick because they accidentally stepped on your foot.

And sadly, it is too typical of a certain brand of left-wing "Look at me, look at me, I'm the biggest victim on the planet so therefore it's perfectly OK for me to victimize other people!!" discourse.

by Noisy Democrat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:21:22 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

what a waste of words (4.00 / 4)

and a hijacking of serious issues in an exercise in self-absorbed egotism. all this diary says is "look at me." for shame, making a false choice between one grief and another, dissipating our collective energies just to stir up trouble. the behavior smacks of trolling to me, and draws attention away from two serious and pressing issues in favor of provoking personal invective.

the same point could have been made without making it personal. that it was done so in this manner suggests that the tragedy of the genocide of native americans is just a hook in service of the diarist's own inflated sense of self-importance.

crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

by wu ming on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:24:49 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

diary titles (3.80 / 15)

the title of this diary was designed to get attention. there was a better way to make your argument rather than with an accusatory title

by bruh1 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:49:09 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

this diary is a perfect example of why... (3.80 / 20)

... the right wins so much, and why we lose so much.

they are team players, whatever their flaws they cooperate with one another and avoid subjecting one another to unnecessary vitriolic criticism over trivia and socially insensitive language.

this diary is not conducive to the ends we are trying to accomplish here.

cindy sheehan is a heroic woman who in the face of inconceivable personal tragedy has done more than any other single individual to stop the republican juggernaut.

she takes the time to post a big hearted message, a moving and thoughtful diary about the meaning of the holiday, to our community and what does she get in return?

she gets subjected to an off-topic lecture by someone who needs to try to prove that his generalized malcontentment over the rest of us being "on indian land" (whatever) and thanksgiving being a "day of mourning" for him personally (and for all native americans, he claims grandly on their behalf) is somehow comparable to her grief over an actual, specific, real-life loss that happened to her personally, not to some long-gone ancestor.

and worst of all, from my point of view, it led her to delete her diary, which i really liked, for what i see as no good reason.

starkraving: may i suggest that until you go through what this amazing lady has gone through, you think twice before subjecting her to some churlish rant over a tangentially relevant criticism.  

or at the very least just put it in the form of a helpful comment instead of draining the energy of the community away from fighting republicans with what amounts to nit-picking about language.

and no, i don't want to get into some kind of p.c. pissing contest, but:

i'm jewish and i had relatives among the millions murdered by european christians, mere decades ago.  and yes, sometimes i hear people using language in a way which unintentionally recalls those unhappy events.

you know what i do when i hear someone say , "tom cruise just unleashed a blitzkrieg of criticism against the psychiatric establishment" or "rob schneider's acting career represents a holocaust of human potential" or something like that?

do i accuse that person of "sticking their foot in my heart" ?  do i declare on behalf of every jew on the face of the globe that christmas is a day of mourning for us, and enquire to them as to whether they knew that?  do i go on a jeremiad against oktoberfest , or tell them they are murdering my ancestors again every time they sing "o tannenbaum" ?

no.  i don't.  i remind myself that

-- any important event in history tends to get used as a metaphor for, or basis for comparisons to, things that are happening in the present;

-- those comparisons are not supposed to be literal identifications; and, as a result

-- such an event will sometimes be used as a metaphor for less momentous events.  

i listen to the substance of what the person has to say and i respond to it -- especially if the person is cindy sheehan, who unlike many of us, may have the ability to stop single handedly a set of events -- the iraq war and its sequelae -- which could become actually, literally comparable to the historical tragedies we have been discussing.

and i try to celebrate the present in spite of the horrors of the past.  neither christmas, nor thanksgiving, nor any other happy holiday time has to be a "day of mourning" if we don't choose to make it one.  

by yellowdoggie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:39:48 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


right (4.00 / 13)

this is one of the ten most fucked up diaries I've read on Daily Kos...it's hurt the ability of one of our most potent activists to get her message out, just for using metaphors that do invoke and remind of the sacrifices that this appropriately named diarist uses her verbal scalpel to illustrate in Ms. Sheehan's blood.

And there are a few members of our tribe who do criticize people for throwing around terms like Holocaust and Nazis and so on but even though the memory is so close for so many of us we disregard them as meshugas, and in fact I appreciate that society constantly reminds itself of what happened by using those metaphors as their words for "worst imaginable".

When the goyim start yokeling "that thar turkey's lookin like it's been through the gas chamber" then yeah, maybe I'll get a little prickish about it.

But would I publically and obnoxiusly take down, say, Howard Dean for cracking on the jewishness of his family? Fuck no. That kind of thing is lunatic.

We don't need public sacrifice of our own heroes as part of rememberance rituals. This diary ought to be deleted. Write another one that doesn't have as its premise attacking one of our own--who's already been through enough--for fuck's sake.

The dark at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming age.

by peeder on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:06:55 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


One of the ten most f*cked up?! (4.00 / 5)

Awesome! People were telling me that I was brutal.

I agree, this diary is completely out of line.

Join us for the Terrorism Walk!

by shmooth on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i agree (4.00 / 11)

i don't understand why it's being recommended.  It's an embarassment to the community.

by MattBellamy on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:31:48 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Fantastic! (none / 0)

I'm glad I'm not the only one willing to post an equally long-winded response to this mincing diary at 5:30 in the morning.

Sign the petition for an open mid-term convention!

by MadCasey on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:44:54 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Kudos (none / 0)

Well written

" Political language. . . is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. " George Orwell

by pogo possum on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:29:05 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Troll rate me to the cross (3.76 / 25)

But this over-sensitive "PC" language thing does the democrats no favors with the middle.  There's sensitive, then there is over the top.

Cindy is trying to right a wrong.  We should stand behind her.  

-5.50, -5.69   I'm Gandhi who happens to own a Machine Gun !!

by Stink Tank on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:10:58 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


PC? (4.00 / 2)

How dare you use such a sensitive term as "over the top"! Such desecration of the memory of the brave WWI troops from which the term sprang is simply disgusting.

</tongue in cheek>

-cdn

"It's not that I hate my country; it's that I love my country so much I can't stand to watch what it's doing to itself." --Walt Whitman

by grndrush on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:42:11 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Didn't you think Cindy (3.00 / 3)

was the cat's pajamas when she called the President -- an icon to many -- to task?

Either it's OK for both these people to do that, or it's not OK for either of them.

You can't have it both ways.

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:03:01 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


the diarist is trying to right a wrong too (4.00 / 2)

just like cindy.

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:32:27 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


It's a matter of tone (3.78 / 14)

I'm familiar with the history of native Americans, and I can understand starkravinglunaticradical's complaint. But I don't agree with the tone of this diary

the title alone is offensive

if our only goal is to wrong those who have wronged us, we have already lost

we're supposed to be the party of compassion

a kinder tone would serve the message better, and make education easier

flies and honey, don't ya know

by knowthings on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:51:22 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

You are on Indian land x3 (3.70 / 10)

Huh... no. The "Indians", as you degradingly refer to western hemispheric aboriginals , were not able to withstand the migrations of "non-Indians." This pattern of peoples overrunning land and displacing earlier inhabitants is one that can be traced back well before Homo sapiens were homo or sentient. As you may know, many tribal communities here on this side of the Atlantic were frequently at war with one another; usually over scarce resources. At least one tribe has been conclusively proved  to be cannibalistic (Anasazi). Your ethnic group holds no moral superiority to any other. You owe Cindy an apology.

"The skeleton in the closet is coming home to roost!" Tom Stoppard

by Apotropoxy on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:36:49 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


All humans (none / 0)

are warlike. We constantly fight with each other. Even back then. Europeans were no better.

To put down the diarist because native americans were war like is stupid.

What part of we tried very very hard to commit genocide do you not understand?

Do you know what genocide means?

by Cyphrus42 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:00:37 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


You're missing the point (4.00 / 2)

All humans are warlike. We constantly fight with each other. Even back then. Europeans were no better.

To put down the diarist because native americans were war like is stupid.

The poster's point is not that Europeans were better than Native Americans with respect to this.

The poster's point is that neither is it true that Native Americans were better than Europeans with respect to this (which was strongly implied by the diarist's statement that we are all on Indian land).

-- E pur si muove.

by asdfasdf on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:09:31 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

The reason for this whole mess... (3.66 / 3)

is the childish recommend/troll rating system that this site uses. It's like a high school popularity contest mixed with the one-upmanship of tabloid newspapers using ridiculous headlines to grab the consumer's attention. It encourages diarists to write the most hyperbolic titles they can and take the most stilted angle possible when analyzing an issue.

This diary is a prime example because the point could have been made much more effectively without bringing Sheehan into it.

Having said that, this diary and its comments are fascinating from the standpoint of the sociology of the dailykos community.

ps there's no God and you know it

by FrostyKotex on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:47:32 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


I don't think that's entirely true. (none / 0)

I think that has something to do with it, but with just the new tags system, people still might have found this diary in droves while looking for stuff on Cindy Sheehan.

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. -Eleanor Roosevelt

by tryptamine on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:56:31 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

The rage is completely appropriate (3.66 / 3)

its is however, misdirected.  This kind of rage should be directed at the people who continue to perpetrate injustice, not for lack of sensitivity for use of a term.

  I will say the loss of one son feels like the loss of the entire world to the person who experiences it.  Even if it isn't.  

by KateG on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:18:24 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

i am absolutely.... (3.50 / 10)

...dumbfounded that apparently quite a few people on this website who rant about the immorality of the iraq war don't have a better grasp of the history of how we came to be on this continent.

i think, as americans, we should all know what is meant by "the trail of tears."

don't depend on someone else to educate you. educate yourselves, people.

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:18:04 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


can you know what it means (3.85 / 7)

and also apply it to a different context without offending anyone??

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:24:41 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i'm having some major problems here... (3.50 / 4)

first of all, i am stunned that ms. sheehan says that she majored in american history and yet isn't aware of what the term "trail of tears" refers to. heck, it was a topic of study in an american history 101 class that i took at a lowly community college.

ms. sheehan's comment upthread please, don't cry, it makes me cry!! rings manipulatively false to me, but that's just me. funny, though, that in numerous of her posts here she again uses the term "trail of tears." i find that offensive. she's talking and not LISTENING.

i admire ms. sheehan greatly, but she needs to understand, along with some of the other posters here, that language is a mighty powerful thing, so powerful that it's exceedingly important to be sensitive when someone says they're offended by the words one chooses to use. it's not a matter of political correctness; it's a matter of treating someone as you would wish to be treated. i'm sure many of the things said about her by those who disagree with her actions have hurt her deeply. it hurts me deeply to read such insensitive things that those on the right have said about her.

in colorado, where the sand creek massacre occurred -- read up on it, folks -- many communities have taken great pains to rename place names to avoid offending american indians no longer. arapaho not arapahoe, for example. in the town in which i live, pueblo, colorado, mexican heritage is in the forefront. a group of people worked tirelessly for years to rename streets with the original mexican names because so many found the anglicized names so offensive. some may think this is unimportant, but it truly is vital, simply because it adds to the feeling that your heritage -- especially if you were here long before the settlers who waltzed in and changed everything and killed your ancestors to top it off -- is being completely ignored.

that said, i shared in the responsibility of coordinating a recent event here in pueblo where the sons of italy and the knights of columbus (read up on that how that group came to be so named -- it's fascinating) organizations commemorated the 100th anniversary of the installation of a statue of christopher columbus. it was a given that there would be protests by both the local mexican contingent and area american indian contingent. somehow, i think by a stroke of pure luck, we were able to give everyone equal time to voice their viewpoints without too many bad feelings. we worked hard to provide everyone an open dialog where all voices were respectful and heard.

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:55:01 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i get all that (4.00 / 9)

none of that, with all due respect, answered my question.

can you know what "trail of tears" means and still apply it to a different context??

is all our pain so deep and profound and PERSONAL that we can't share it??  that we can't unify behind it and bind it tight in one co-ordinated movement to overthrow the nazis??????

??

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:59:21 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


formalist (4.00 / 3)

come out from under your rock and contribute to the discussion.

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:28:18 AM EST
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to flame or not to flame, that is the question (3.50 / 6)

I'm starting to feel like Hamlet here

for a flamewarrior, that title is the equivilent of "to be or not to be"

I don't know who formalist is, but his rating habits suck

I'm trying to be a nice guy here, and this guy's giving out 1s to mediators ???

insert standard insult here

by knowthings on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:06:13 AM EST
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formalist (4.00 / 4)

is still waging a battle that ended 2 weeks ago.

i'd actually like to hear his/her thoughts on this diary.

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:09:38 AM EST
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cowards rate and run (3.66 / 9)

you ain't gonna see any comments by formalist

he's flamed just about everyone

he is the only thing about this incident that I find enjoyable

keep on trying, dude

by knowthings on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:23:08 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I know, I know (4.00 / 3)

You weren't intending to direct that remark towards Rep. Murtha.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:53:33 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I Don't Think You'll Have formalist To Kick Around (none / 1)

Any more.  I just rated Bimini Cat's comment with a "4", and low and behold, formalist's "1" vanished in between my choosing the "4" and the refresh after clicking the rate button.  A comment that would have read "3.25/4" now is rated "4.00/3".

Of course, it's not possible for formalist and this other clown to be the same person posting under two handles . . .

"L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

"L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

by JJB on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:09:43 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


when frogs float! (none / 0)

Whoa! I'm agreeing with you all throughout this thread. How to explain it? It's not even TUESDAY. :)

Is nothing secular?

by aitchdee on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:03:01 AM EST
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i know (4.00 / 3)

i try to be very consistent.

i genuinely believe the diarist here and cindy are on the same team.  and you and i might agree on that.

but here's the creepy thing:  i still believe that hillary and cindy are on the same team.

which is probably where we start to disagree.

which is ok.

disagreement is ok.

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:08:38 AM EST
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oh c'mon, don't invite discord (none / 0)

Can't ya suspend it for five minutes together, you silly Bimi? (For the record, I like Cindy a heck of a lot and I trust her: with Cindy, I have no doubt what you see is what you get. Hillary on the other hand is a polished enigma; I don't know what to think. She might be too clever by half. I hate her stump speech voice. She's wicked smart. She's ambitious. She's a politician. She's also a mother and a wife. Dunno otherwise; that's the depth of my analysis of the Senator from NY so far.)

Is nothing secular?

by aitchdee on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:22:53 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i never said that (4.00 / 14)

i didn't know what the term trail of tears referred to
it is a dark time in american history when my people made starkraving's people move from their land to oklahoma "indian territory"
many native americans died...and it was heartbreaking that they had to leave their ancestral homes
my family is on a trail of tears too
our life is a pathway and it is full of tears...
i don't think starkraving's people have a monopoly on pain, although i am sorry for causing her more pain. if there is a hierarchy of pain, starkraving's people are at the top, though...which is a disgrace and a blot on our history. a history replete with disgrace.
which i fully acknowledge and also mourn.
holy crap, i removed my diary...and i am deeply, profoundly, and sincerely sorry.
a car bomb just killed 20 people in Iraq...can we stop fighting amongst ourselves and fight the injustice and immorality of the war in Iraq?

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:07:46 AM EST
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Peace (4.00 / 8)

Cindy you addressed the situation and apologized many times and there is nothing more to do at this point.

You may not be familiar with pie fights that occur on here, but this happens at times and my sense is that it is going to get uglier and uglier in here.

Many of us here know you meant no harm and were unaware of the meaning and quickly and wholeheartedly apologized and we love and respect you for that and everything you have done and will keep doing.

Your supporters aren't leaving you!

Get some rest and have a safe trip tomorrow and fight the big fight in Crawford for us all. You started people talking about the war and Bush's lies about this war in August and we love you for that.

Have a good night's rest and think ahead!

Peace and love

LUKE :)

"I got a letter from the Republican Party the other day. I wrote back, 'Go fuck yourself.'" - Bette Midler (Rolling Stone, 9/18/2005)

by GregNYC on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:41:33 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


i don't know (4.00 / 6)

about pie fights
thanks for "filling" me in
thanks for the good wishes.
good night

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:49:45 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


It's an old KOSSACK tradition (3.57 / 7)

actually it is called a flame war (but hopefuilly this will not get THAT bad)

don't let it bother you. I is not your fault. Its just a phase this blog goes through from time to time

get some sleep, come back tommorrow and see what the new day has in store

but don't be surprised if it gets ugly here for a while

I believe you and starkravinglunaticradical are both sincere in your remarks and in your positions

we'll sort this out eventually

by knowthings on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:11:50 AM EST
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i apologize... (none / 0)

....i misread two of your comments. to clarify what i misunderstood...you said you didn't know that this is considered a day of mourning in the american indian culture. then you said you knew about the trail of tears.

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:43:56 AM EST
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Well, I am sorry you're having to (none / 1)

put yourself through these ridiculous paces, Cindy. Don't guilt trip yourself too much, okay? Lordy be.

Is nothing secular?

by aitchdee on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:06:14 AM EST
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asdf (4.00 / 21)


  1. Do you believe Sheehan MEANT to offend Indians?

  2. If not, why is she pegged to such a high standard of cultural sensitivity that she deserves to be attacked and scorned for a mistake any one of us could have made? What makes her so godlike that she is not allowed these same foibles?

  3. Do you believe it's possible that someone could believe they understand a term's meaning historically, but could not possibly grasp its full impact without being a part of the culture that actually experienced it?

  4. Knowing that the term 'holocaust' is almost exclusively used to describe the elimination of European Jews, have you ever used the term in any context? Did you mean offense to Jews by it?

  5. When you say that she needs to be more sensitive when she causes offense, did you see all of her roughly half-dozen apologies, or just the one you've decided is "manipulative"?

"I told them on Inauguration Day. I said look into my eyes: no new enhancements." - President Johnny Gentle (Famous Crooner)

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:18:45 AM EST
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no, i don't... (none / 0)

...believe ms. sheehan meant to offend anyone.

i don't believe anyone here is really attacking anyone else (well, there were a few posts that were completely over the top). i think what's going on is a natural process meant to sort out how we all need to be careful of the words we use, either for purposes of judgement or for purposes of expression of feelings.

no, i have never, ever used the term holocaust to describe anything but what the nazis did to the jews. to use it to describe anything else minimizes the true nature of the word.

and, yes, i saw ms. sheehan's many apologies. i also saw her continue to use the phrase the diarist found offensive over and over again. i said that i felt ms. sheehand was not truly listening to what the diarist was saying.

it's amazing to think that any one of us could walk past another poster here tonight on the street tomorrow and not even realize we'd shared this war of words with him or her. all we have here are words. we must choose them very wisely. i'm sure we have all said things on dailykos that in retrospect we'd like to take back or rephrase.

Crime is contagious....if the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law. -- Justice Louis Brandeis

by FemiNazi on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:16:18 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


but you use the word "nazi" (4.00 / 3)

in your user id, and in an apparently positive sense.

how are you dealing with your offense to others?

your use of the term offends me, as well as disrespects and marginalizes those who have suffered in a way you probably can't even imagine.

Q:"You've called Bush a loser." A:"And a liar." Q:"You apologized for the loser comment." A:"But never for the liar, have I?" - Rolling Stone with Harry Reid

by alivingston on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:26:08 AM EST
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Hey Johnny and Femi (4.00 / 2)

As I posted above, The Holocaust involved more than genocide against Jews. Yes, the vast majority of victims were Jews, but the Nazis also tried to eradicate many other groups they deemed a blight on their perfect aryan race. These included gays, gypsys, Jehovah's Witnesses, and people with disabilities, among others.

But where I part company with the diarist is that I don't stand up as a gay man with disabilities and scream "How Dare You!" I don't try to spin your simple ignorance or oversight into a divisive attack. I don't know if you are aware of this fact about The Holocaust and I make no assumptions. I merely point out the information as best as I know it and assume you to be people of good will until you prove otherwise.

Pardon me for not looking up the proper citation and attribution, but do I not conquer my enemy when I make my enemy my friend? This is what I think the diarist has missed.

Tim LaHaye can kiss my "left behind"

by homogenius on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:54:32 AM EST
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* [new] a couple of ancillary points (none / 0)

Holocaust is different than holocaust.

Estimates range widely on the amount of people killed during the Holocaust.  Conservative estimates peg it at 11 million, 6 million of whom were Jews, 3 million of whom were non-Jewish Poles, and the other 2 million a hodge-podge of 'undesirables.'  The high end of the spectrum of estimates is 26 million.  I'm not sure of the breakdown of the latter estimate...

(I just taught a unit on this at my high school.)

by Hounds on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:24:09 PM EST
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sure thing Nazi.......n/t (2.00 / 6)

by Glickman on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:07:21 AM EST
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hypocrite...you are...is the appropriate term (none / 1)

for this discussion.  FemiNazi.

Never have so few taken so much from so many for so long.

(-6.75, -3.85)

by mapKY on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:11:20 AM EST
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I don't think so (none / 0)

The trail of tears is to the Indian as the holocaust is to the Jew. Some designations are exclusive and should remain so.

I beg you leave me restless, I live with the impossible ocean and silence bleeds me dry!

by dangangry on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:59:50 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


It's a bit more complicated (4.00 / 2)

With regard to the use of terms like the Holocaust, it's worth recalling that the victims of the Nazi holocaust were not limited to Jews.  Gays, gypsies, and others were also victims, systematically targeted as well.  About six million Jews were killed by the Nazis, but several million more were also liquidated.  

Second, there is a serious debate about whether the Nazi holocaust is unique and the term Holocaust should be restricted to this one event.  There are at least two dimensions, in my limited understanding, to this debate: whether the Nazi holocaust bears comparison to the various others genocides that have preceded and followed it over the last century (beginning with the Armenian genocide), and how the memory of the Nazi holocaust bears on the illegal Israeli occupation of the West Bank after the 1967 war.  (Consider how Norman G. Finkelstein, himself the son of holocaust survivors, has been accused of being a kind of holocaust denier for his critical writings which do nothing of the sort.)  

Please don't troll-rate me.  I don't particularly like casual metaphorical uses of either "holocaust" or "trail of tears."  But I don't want to put yellow warning tape around pieces of language either.  

"Who cares what you think?" -- George W. Bush

by kellogg on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:14:00 PM EST
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Troll rate? (none / 0)

I would never troll rate an honest opinion even if I don't competely agree.  Your observations are carefully thought out, not inflamatory, and I believe sincere.  You appear to be striving to find a solution to a particularily wicked semantic problem.  What more can a person ask in an open dialogue?

I beg you leave me restless, I live with the impossible ocean and silence bleeds me dry!

by dangangry on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:45:01 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

stop troll rating people (3.50 / 6)

Look, imo, starkravinglunaticradical's core point is excellent, and also plays into the larger theme that we seldom look at what we do/say from any other perspective than our own. That being said, this diary is way over the top, ridiculous and embarrassing, it reads like a parody of political correctness you would find on The Onion, and at any rate, she really owes Cindy an apology.

And don't fucking troll rate me, that's my honest and genuine reaction to this diary, when you troll rate people for giving reasonable but not popular opinions, you stifle discussion - and piss me off.

</cranky>

by Parker Lewis Cant Lose on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:45:51 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Does starkravinglunatic look (4.00 / 3)

at things from any persprctive but her own?

(-2.75,-4.77) "Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose." Senator Barack Obama

by Sam I Am on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


dammit, yellowdoggie! (none / 0)

:)

by Parker Lewis Cant Lose on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:52:25 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

I think the lesson learned here (3.33 / 3)

is how we (the white people) commandeer other cultures, and throw the rest by the side of the road. We portray Indians with hatchets in hand for our sports mascots, our kids don a headdress for the school Thanksgiving play, and we refer to our personal loss and pain as a Trail of Tears.

I knew before reading this diary how tragic the Trail of Tears was, and frankly, Cindy should have known better.

Thanks, starkravinglunaticradical; it was an extremely well-written and timely diary.

Be quick to love, and make haste to be kind.

by peterpeter on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:09:30 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

how's this diary (3.30 / 10)

going??

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:46:31 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Usual Holiday Cheer {n/t} (4.00 / 2)

"It's not that I hate my country; it's that I love my country so much I can't stand to watch what it's doing to itself." --Walt Whitman

by grndrush on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:37:25 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Time to "get over it" (3.28 / 7)

I am not sure what this thing is all about...or even why it was brought up.

When I learned of what happened ; the taking of this land, I was horrifed. That's not the way I understood it as a child. BUT: When I was a child;I thought as a child. Upon being educated ...{true history} I made sure my children, grand children and now my great grandchildren know "the rest of the story."

It is the same with  "African" Americans ....and "Jewish" Americans,etc. etc.

Until and unless we can see each other as just Americans.....there will always be wars, hard feelings etc. That doesn't solve a thing; but only serves to keep us divided .

While I empathize with all......I think it serves no purpose to continually complain about the past ! It was NOT me that bought and sold slaves; it was NOT me that took land from anyone !!
Until and unless we all "get over it" ,look to the future and stand together as one...we're screwed !! JMHO!!
Peace to all !!

by ajr2005 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:40:43 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


If we really want an end to war, (4.00 / 4)

we'll need to start seeing each other as humans.

"The concentration [of the legislative, executive and judicial powers] in the same hands is precisely the definition of despotic government." - Jefferson

by El Payo on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:06:45 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Was your goal to gain sympathy for ... (3.07 / 54)

... the Indian cause?

That you have - but you can't go off in this manner because someone uses the term "Trail of Tears", seriously.

"I don't do quagmires, and my boss doesn't do nuance."

by SteinL on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:13:57 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Respectfully, sincerely (4.00 / 2)

you sound like you're conflict-avoidant. And I'm saying that from growing up in a conflict-avoidant family, and getting over it.

Of course -- as SRL said, he/she can and DID go off like that.

Hearing other people express strong opinions isn't the end of the world. It's just... a chance to learn and listen.

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:51:35 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I rated you (4.00 / 6)

a 4 only your comment was rated so low.

And I do understand what you are saying. What happened to natives here is such a horror and should be a great shame, not the thing of cowboy movies and a vague part of history.
Whenever I hear about "illegal immigrants" I think about how natives must wish they hadn't let the immigrants in then.

There is much history, there was much loss. When my kids were small and learned the happy pilgrim story we talked about more. How the country was taken is an ugly picture. The loss was immense.

But this diary would have been more impactive to me without the ire pointed at someone who did nothing wrong or knowingly offensive, who bears her own pain and expresses it in a way that helps heal our country.

I can't say I'll be offended if someone uses the term trail of tears. There is so much pain in humanity, century upon century of struggle and pain and loss and abuse and despair.
Though Cindy didn't use it that way it would fit the loss of Casey. Not as one person but at the generation upon generation of mothers of every color and race...who have grieved their son lost to a war that didn't need to happen. Cindy's anguish is the anguish of mothers around the world through time. It is the anguish of the last thousands of years. The keeling wail of pain that echos through the ages...but the men still have their wars, the boys still go.

Mans inhumanity to man has gone on in too many places for far too long and I am sorry for it all. We are human and what has hurt anyone hurts us all and I am sorry for it all, what has been dome to anyones people or anyones child.

If you'd been in the mood for a rambling post you'd have said more and it might not have sounded so blunt. But it was hard to see it pointed at someone the way it was.

by joynow on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:51:49 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


This person can "go off" ... (3.78 / 14)

... on someone for using the term.

I don't imagine Cindy intended offense. But Cindy Sheehan is a woman imploring this nation to educate itself about her cause and make it ours. Her own  ignorance comes with the price of pain she inflicts on others, and the price of the indignation it earns.

I am a not-so-distant daughter of the Shinnecock people. Check out that history some day. It's damn ugly. I don't usually think of it this time of year, but maybe it's time I get into the habit of acknowledging it.

As for Cindy Sheehan, it may be that, given to know what pain she's caused, she will apologize or acknowledge the pain she unknowingly caused. It wouldn't surprise me, she strikes me as that kind of woman. I'd admire her the more for it if she did.  

-- Nancy

Nancy Virginia Varian, Editorial Director DemSpeak Talking, thinking, writing about our democracy

by Nancy Varian on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:48:03 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I am recommending this post cause (4.00 / 10)

I am so proud of my chickasaw blood.  I am a big mix of many peoples, but I am most proud of my indian and Irish heritage.  

While I don't think Cindy meant any offense, and I was not offened by her diary, I am very glad that you posted this.

Lots of love and respect to both of you.

Take care,
Melody

by Melodybe on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:45:50 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I can't? Well I just did. (3.26 / 88)

Sympathy? Are you fucking kidding?

Awareness, maybe?

Sensitivity perhaps?

Could you please tell me what you thing "the" "Indian" "cause" is?

"I think the President should look across the country and find the most qualified man, woman, or minority."-Trent Lott

by starkravinglunaticradical on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:22:48 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


This is the white folks waking up my friend... (4.00 / 8)

Just a quick reminder for reference in context sake

I'm Irish, among other things, but most came to the country at the beginning of the 20th century, right before WWI. I don't know if any of my family was ever responsible in any way for these past tragedies. Don't suppose I ever will.

But I've always considered Thanksgiving day a day to remember who lived here first. One of my best friends as a child was Oglala if I remember right. It was a long time ago. Knew him about 9 years till I was 13. It was always real sad at his house. When his mom would come around. He lived with his grandmother.

Always think of him just about this time of year. I sure hope he's doing well. He was a great friend.

And in case you hadn't heard it, or should it matter much coming from no one, like me.

I'M sorry. For everything.

Just my perspective. Take it as you will.

Eternal Independent Thinking for myself since 1972.

by Erevann on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:05:05 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Post-1880 immagrants to America (2.50 / 2)

may not have directly perpetrated any crimes against Native Aemricans but by coming to America they and their descendents are benefiting from the earlier white settlers who  did commit crimes.

(-2.75,-4.77) "Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose." Senator Barack Obama

by Sam I Am on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:29:33 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


RANT: this is crazy (4.00 / 7)

me personally, as an African American, sometimes I am offended and taken aback when people call Cindy Sheehan the modern day Rosa Parks. And then someone called John Murtha that as well! Come on people. I have been insulted by those comparisons. Granted Cindy has never compared herself to Rosa Parks. But I don't take it so seriously because people are free to make their own historical parallels. And even though I am African American I do not claim ownership over the appropriation of Ms. Parks' name. Similarly, I try not to go around reminding white people all the time of how America would be nothing without the free labor that Africans and African Americans provided under the boot of oppression and the threat of a whip's lash. It's NOT just Indian land anymore. The history of Native Americans is tragic. The living history of the Iraqi people is tragic. The history of my people is tragic, and the history of many white people is tragic. The history of the Taino Indians is tragic - they are also my ancestors. I don't know what I am saying anymore - it's a rant. I'm not pissed at you for being offended. I'm just pissed that I woke up Thanksgiving morning to this mess.

I understand your offense, but I think you were a bit harsh on Cindy. I also did not get a chance to read her original diary. By the tenor of the comments in this diary, in her's and in others, you'd think she spouted the same revisionist schoolbook version of Thanksgiving. But I didn't read it, so I couldn't tell you. My rant is nonsensical, and it's over now.

Stop saying that blue state people are out of touch with the morals and values of the red states. I'm not out of touch with them, I just don't share them.

by missreporter on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:41:55 AM EST
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My interpretation (none / 1)

of Cindy's diary "Blessings" was that she was counting hers, which included her family, friends, supporters, and others in the struggle to get answers from POTUS about why Casey died.

"Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

by kredwyn on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:57:20 AM EST
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I read it at Michael Moore's site (none / 0)

and I guess it had the offending phrase removed. I don't get how such a diary can provoke such outrage, but then again I am not starkravinglunaticradical.

Stop saying that blue state people are out of touch with the morals and values of the red states. I'm not out of touch with them, I just don't share them.

by missreporter on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:16:02 AM EST
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I read it at michael moore's site (none / 0)

And the quote is sarcastic, taken out of context. Later on, Moore says what he means when he writes:


 With Bible passages in their hands to justify their every move, the Puritans began their march inland from the seaside communities. Joined by British settlers, they seized land, took the strong and young Natives as slaves to work the land, and killed the rest. When they reached the Connecticut Valley around 1633, they met a different type of force. The Pequot Nation, very large and very powerful, had never entered into the peace treaty negotiated by Squanto as had other New England Native nations. When 2 slave raiders were killed by resisting Natives, the Puritans demanded that the killers be turned over. The Pequot refused. What followed was the Pequot War, the bloodiest of the Native wars in the northeast.

An army of over 200 settlers was formed, joined by over 1,000 Narragansett warriors. Because of the lack of fighting experience, and the vast numbers of the fierce Pequot warriors, Commander John Mason elected not to stage an open battle. Instead, the Pequot were attacked, one village at a time, in the hours before dawn. Each village was set on fire with its sleeping Natives burned alive. Women and children over 14 were captured to be sold as slaves; other survivors were massacred. The Natives were sold into slavery in The West Indies, the Azures, Spain, Algiers and England; everywhere the Puritan merchants traded. The slave trade was so lucrative that boatloads of 500 at a time left the harbors of New England.

And the story goes on, very very bloody and nasty, with much killing of women and children by the colonists.

Electronic voting is no vote at all. (-3.38, -6.56)

by agoldnyc on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:53:06 AM EST
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ouch. (none / 1)

I think that was me who compared Murtha to Parks. Sorry to have given offense; it was more intellectual lazyness, I hope, than a deliberate attempt to appropriate Parks' name. Thanks for not castigating me publically. But thanks also for bringing it up in your rant.

by oysterface on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:22:11 PM EST
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i think the diarist (4.00 / 4)

is full of shit!

To go off on 3 words that belong to no one against a woman who has displayed nothing but but a good heart, strength an courage as she stood up alone against the Rove smear machine (everyone jumped on board later and tried to co-opt this very decent woman).

I've lived in Canada's northern communities alongside and with indiginous peoples and I don't believe the point is well made at all. The plight and all the wrongs done to Native Americans have nothing to do with Cindy's post.

A great example of PCism run wild. The left makes it so easy to divide and conquer.

Flame away!

by karlpk on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:10:39 AM EST
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Thank you (3.71 / 28)

I grew up knowing that my school's American history books were biased.  I grew up hearing my dad say that he thinks all Americans should be required to read "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee".

I grew up knowing what happened after "Thanksgiving" - the smallpox, Kit Carson, reservations, all of that.

So I've recommended your diary.

Finally, someone speaks up here at dailyKos.

And I swear to God I'm not going to post a "Happy Thanksgiving" thread on the front page.


I wear the black in mournin' for the lives that could have been/ Each week we lose a hundred fine young men. -- Johnny Cash

by Plutonium Page on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:38:02 AM EST
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Amen (4.00 / 2)

I will never forget when I first read the American's History of the United States and learned the truth about Columbus and America's history.  Suffice it to say I was pretty floored.  Not exactly what they teach you in school is it?  History is always rewritten whenever the truth is too unpleasant.  Which is probably how our country keeps churning out so many republicans.  Unfortunately there is still alot of ignorance out there.

by margaretc on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:26:01 AM EST
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Hat's off to your dad, eh! (3.36 / 25)

And thanks for the links -- they are good, I hope people will follow them --

Your "endorsement" means much.

So now maybe I can get some sleep.

After all, there is a bird to be put in the oven in the mo(u)rning. ;) I love the smell of cold turkey in the morning

Thanks, plutonium page, one "ear" at a time--and no, I'm not talking about the corn. :)

"I think the President should look across the country and find the most qualified man, woman, or minority."-Trent Lott

by starkravinglunaticradical on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:53:58 AM EST
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i'm confused.. (3.85 / 7)

you celebrate thanksgiving??? with a turkey?
after all the ruckus over at cindy's diary and your long diary here - i did not picture you "celebrating" the intrusion of the white settler onto this land.

sorry, but this seems incongruous with your outrage.

oh, btw, you owe cindy sheehan an apology, don't you think?

we do.  i do.

Voldemart lives again - in the white house!

by edrie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:08:25 AM EST
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That is a damn good point, edrie. (none / 0)

I dug your earlier, elsewhere comments on homelessness too. Almost sent you an email (I'm thinking about maybe trying to open a sort of homeless respite center  ((laundry, showers, bathroom, kitchen, plump sofas and chairs in a genuine house w/ a fire place and flowers on the table, for instance)) here in the city of Sacramento; not sure how to get started tho).

Is nothing secular?

by aitchdee on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:24:36 AM EST
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First, (none / 0)

you write down your plan...get that cleaned up and run it past a few folks.

Then, you gather some like-minded people together so that you've got help with the next steps...

Then, you scout out locations...

Then, you write a proposal asking someone for the funds to start this project.

"Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

by kredwyn on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:07:09 AM EST
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Right Stark (3.28 / 57)

I'm with you. I'd like to mention BTW that I'm of French descent. >From henceforth no one can say "Let them eat Cake" or make any reference to a Guillotine. In fact, don't even use english words, they used to kill my ancestors by the thousands. If anyone breaks my rule and offende me, I'll pick out the beloved mother of a recently diagnosed todller with terminal cancer, who had the gall to use those terms and shit all over them, by writing a clownish diary using counterfiet offense to disguise a smear.

In the meantime I think you should apply for Mr Rove's job. You have the spiel down pat.

Read UTI, your free thought forum

by DarkSyde on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:25:37 AM EST
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Enough already (4.00 / 21)


I'm of French descent

That explains a lot of things, M. Côténoyr...

But it's not a good argument here, I'm afraid. The French have never been politically correct, so you can smear them, insult them, demean them as much as you want and you will never be called a bigot. It's okay, and even entertaining at times. The message seems to be that you should only joke about people you have not succeeded in annihilating or massacring.

In the long run, we're all dead (Keynes)
Read more on the European Tribune - bringing dKos to Europe

by Jerome a Paris on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:52:17 AM EST
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seems like a fair message n/t (none / 0)

by Simon Malthus on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:11:26 AM EST
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Genocide (4.00 / 7)

is not comparable to revolution or a war between two powerful states.  Jerome a Paris is right: you don't joke about genocide, nor should you reference it in passing.  And stark clearly isn't a freeper plant.  Sorry if your sensitivities don't align with the stark's, but that's no reason to tear her a new one.  Stark has been frustrated for a while about the apparent lack of concern for American Indian issues on kos, and I think the casual reference especially on the eve of a day of mourning, was particularly distressing to her.  Try to have some sympathy, or even respect, for Christ's sake.  Just because it happened a hundred years ago and your wife thought it was a hoot is no reason to spit on someone's sorrow.

by Quilty on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:52:31 AM EST
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considering that my cousin (3rd) was (2.83 / 6)

the FIRST and possibly ONLY white man given a burial on indian land for his work in presenting the history and art of the native americans - i have to say that stark totally alienated me with her offensive attack on cindy.  i have NOT read her diary - i am not going to READ her diary - i am not INTERESTED in ANYthing she has to say because of her attitude.

that said, i am NOT saying that i am uninterested in the affairs of native americans.  i am just not interested in what stark has to say any longer.

Voldemart lives again - in the white house!

by edrie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:21:44 AM EST
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Minority by proxy? (4.00 / 3)

Your comment raises an interesting side-topic for me, and I'd like to preface by saying that, unlike much of this thread, I'm neither flaming nor making fun of you. Just a serious comment.

I thought it was interesting that you chose to mention that your third cousin was revered enough for his history work to be buried in a Native plot. I guess I don't understand how your relation to him gives you any more leverage to be alienated by this diary, or authority on the subject.

My grandmother is the last member of the Cherokee Nation in her family line, and I often find her perspective on things critical to my understanding of what it means to be a native in this country, but I don't feel it gives me, as white American, any more credibility on these types of subjects.

My grandmother wouldn't agree with Stark's argument here. She happens to believe that the Native plight is set in stone, and that she's just going to live her life as well as she can. In fact, she's downstairs right now cooking a turkey, and happens to love the Cleveland Indians, and sees no reason to change their name - but, she doesn't go around dissing her fellow native peoples who protest the team name, and she would sure be a hell of a lot more respectful than most people here are to Stark's feelings of extreme sorrow, no matter how much she disagreed.

And to add another "but" - those are my grandmother's feelings, and while they give me important perspective, they don't give me a right to claim authority on the subject simply due to my genetic and social relationship to her. I'll be the first to admit that I can get annoyed when I hear white people spouting off about how offensive the Cleveland "Indians" are, knowing my grandmother's views, but it's still not my experience, and doesn't lend me personal authority on the subject.

I'd really like it if everyone hear could back off of each other a little bit on a day of sorrow for some, and a day of thanks for others. It won't hurt us to be respectful, whether or not everyone else here is also being respectful (and I don't believe the normal "politics is just dirty business" argument applies here - this isn't about politics today).

by surfbird007 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:30:45 AM EST
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Thanks to Surf, Edrie, and Stark (none / 1)

  Thanks to Edrie because she and others managed to calm Cindy Sheehan down enough so that she will continue you to post. Cindy felt that she did not want to post if she was going to offend people.
  Thanks to Surf for her insight.
  And thanks to Stark for his anger and his knowlege and his links. I tutor black and hispanic elementary school kids. They are writing about Columbus, the explorers, and the Pilgrims. One boy said,"I don't want to write about Columbus because I hate him." So now he is writing why he hates him- Indians killed and enslaved, etc. Stark has given me info the kids can use on the Pilgrims.
Thanks

by peggy on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:58:50 AM EST
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I'm willing to bet that Cindy... (none / 1)

...offended unintentionally.  And is willing to learn.  We all make missteps at times.  I always figure a good way to measure a person's character is how they deal with it when a mistake comes to light.  I'm not worried about Cindy in that respect.  Unless she makes the mistake of dropping out completely in response.  And it sounds like that's been prevented.  So good.

Of course, by that measure (how one deals with mistakes when they come to light), this bunch in power in Washington SUCKS,  We'd all be well-advised not to forget that and to keep everything in perspective.  The only tribal leaders who've even gotten face time with Bush either endorsed him on last year's campaign trail (I think a very small number did), or gave big time to Abramoff.

-8.63, -5.28

by Land of Enchantment on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:18:29 PM EST
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How could she alienate you (none / 0)

if you haven't read her diary?  How can you understand "her attitude" without reading her words?  And for the last time, this "I have a cousin" business is just ridiculous.  While you could have expressed your cousin's views on the Native American issues today (he seems like he would have a lot of them), you did not choose to share them, instead hoping that the fact that you were related to this person gives some credence to your views.  It doesn't, particularly when you are too close-minded to even read the diary.

by Quilty on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:36:43 PM EST
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Good lord (3.84 / 13)

that was rude.

People go off about things here all the time that they're sensitive about.

Man oh man -- that was a post that should've been thought through before send was hit.

Do you go off like that when women rant about rape? When Katrina victims rant about the gov't response?

Do you expect people to read your diaries and learn from them? Well, then, what's wrong with trying that here?

Or it's just OK with you when white people step on the toes of people of color -- that's the thing that people shouldn't complain about?

Losing a kid doesn't give you a free pass for the rest of your life. Trust me. Been there, done that. That does NOT give me license to stop trying to improve when I (yes, even with good intent) offend people.

Being alive means we all offend people from time to time. Part of our social compact is that we apologize as best as possible, and find a way to weave ourselves into a community again.

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:58:52 AM EST
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You presuppose (4.00 / 29)

that an apology for the use of the term "Trail of Tears" is necessary.

It happens that I've known what the term refers to since college, but if someone else didn't, and if they were basically good hearted, I would hope to see them tapped lightly with the clue stick rather than bludgeoned with it.

I always cringe when the ADL, ostensibly speaking for my religion, makes a big deal over someone "misappropriating" the term "Holocaust" to refer to some enormous tragedy like Rwanda or Cambodia.  I have a hard time reconciling my reaction to that position with the notion that it's perfectly obvious that "Trail of Tears" should never be used metaphorically.

We don't advance our causes by bludgeoning our friends.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:13:17 AM EST
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They're different... (3.50 / 4)

There is only one "Trail of Tears", as it is a term that was coined for a specific event.. there is a Jewish Holocaust, but it is a meta-event which borrows its name from the preexistent noun "holocaust"... an event can be holocaustic if it is terrible enough to justify emotionally evocative language, or if it involves fiery destruction of some sort.
Using the term holocaust as a generic noun or adjective is acceptable in such cases, however, using it as a simile or metaphor is where you would risk co-opting other people's suffering. If you describe the Cambodian or Rwandan genocides as holocaustic, you're justified, but if you shift the emphasis a little and say "the Cambodian Holocaust" then you're assuming too much. The only people who have a right to use such a metaphor would be the very subjects of it, or, with much leniency given, a Jew analyzing the same event, for obvious reasons.

The Native American genocide, IMO, is not holocaustic, as I feel that "holocaust" has connotations of deliberate and calculated destruction, and has a sense of suddenness to it. The white settlers were duplicitous, passive-aggressive, and took many decades to achieve the genocide of the natives, which is no less reprehensible, but semantically I would disagree with the use of the word holocaust.

For the record, I'm white, nonJewish, atheist, and I feel that no matter what you call any of the above events, they are all inarguably deplorable.

by baccaruda on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:08:35 AM EST
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"Jewish Holocaust"? (4.00 / 3)

But that's incorrect, as well. While the overwhelming majority of victims of the Nazi genocide and its related crimes against humanity were Jews, they also persecuted, tortured, and murdered gays, gypsys, Jehovah's Witnesses, and people with disabilities, among others.

"The" Holocaust is sufficient.

Technically genocide and holocaust are synonyms. However, the term holocaust has come to have a specific, unique meaning.

Tim LaHaye can kiss my "left behind"

by homogenius on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:08:51 AM EST
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While we are being technical (none / 0)

Technially, holocaust means "a sacrifice consumed by fire" and techically genoicide means "the deliberate and systeatic destruction of a racial, political or cultureal group". Not the same thing.

"They don't think it be like it is, but it do." Oscar Gamble, 1980.

by Spider Stumbled on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:59:51 AM EST
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I agree with both of you. (4.00 / 2)

I overlooked the other targets of the Nazis, partly because of the late hour, and partly because I was responding to other comments dealing solely with Judaism. I feel that both of your points are compatible with what I was saying. thanks :)

by baccaruda on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:02:36 PM EST
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Chillin' (3.14 / 7)

I guess starkravinglunaticradical is really offended by the song "Tracks of My Tears". I guess he should write a post and blast Smokey for writing a love song with a similar metaphor.

by tazz on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:50:10 AM EST
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Do you actually not know what... (3.25 / 4)

...the Trail of Tears was?  Are you ignorant, or simply boorishly rude?  Let's hope you're ignorant, because there's better hope of improving the situation in that case.  In an odd coincidence, Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer was on CNN's Larry King show yesterday, in an extended interview, and talked about this very case (albeit briefly).

There was a Supreme Court decision that the Cherokee should not be removed.  Incidentally, a removal that was precipitated in good part by gold being found in the NW Georgia hills.  (That Atlanta is a much newer city than Savannah is because it wasn't settled until after the Cherokee were removed in 1838.)  Removal of Native people in America goes on today, still in the quest for more gold.  That part's not just something for the history books.

President Andrew Jackson ignored the Court's ruling, famously saying:

Well, John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it.

The Trail of Tears is widely seen as one of the most shameful episodes in America's history.  The Cherokee were removed from their homes.  FYI, they'd taked on many European customs, devised an alphabet, printed newspapers, etc, and couldn't be classified as "savages" by the standards of the day.  They were marched forcibly, by the US Army, to Oklahoma over the winter.  Most of them died along the way.  Thus the name "Trail of Tears", where they were forced to march on, leaving their dead behind all along the route.

Try walking a mile in those shoes.

Ann Coulter has been known to dish out ridicule on this matter, too.  (Recommending that Jeb Bush follow Jackson's example and thumb his nose at the courts - in the Terry Schiavo case.)  From Coulter, its disgusting but expected.  Does any dKosser actually want to keep her company on this one?

-8.63, -5.28

by Land of Enchantment on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:03:08 PM EST
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Thanks (none / 1)

I actually was ignorant about the Trail of Tears, so I've stayed out of this discussion. But that was one of the few really informative comments in this thread.

by cybo on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:54:50 PM EST
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Comment wasn't in reply to you (none / 0)

but in reply to darksyde.

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:21:57 AM EST
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I know (4.00 / 6)

but I can still reply to it if I think I have something to contribute.  (Unless I've totally misunderstood local protocol, at least.)

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:24:58 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Thanksgiving isn't perfect (none / 0)

I'm actually glad you pointed out the misuse of the phrase "trail of tears"...i was unaware.
I don't think Cindy should have used the term. However,  i never hurt any indians, and my family is from the UK...
So, i'm still gonna have apple pie today sorry.

by astronautagogo on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


The Diarist was Justified (none / 0)

He stated that he was planning to write a diary to raise awareness of American Indian issues and history. And that is precisely what he did. That he chose to ride the celebrity of Cindy very effectively for this purpose IMHO was a brilliant maneuver.

Bravo, and excellent diary. I would not expect Cindy to be upset by this.....perhaps honored.

"lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed"

by yuriwho on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:40:06 PM EST
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When it comes to writing... (2.00 / 7)

you have demonstrated a real knack for clownishness.  I have no doubt about your ability to use counterfiet emotion in lame attempt to disguise your smear.  To help you understand, starkravinglunaticradical, is expressing something that has concerned him for considerably longer than the five minutes you spent in outrage for your French heritage.  Your assertion of equivalency in these matters is ridiculous on it's face.

by Tonedevil on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:23:40 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I think that SRLR (4.00 / 13)

is a woman.

Look, Darksyde was using an implicit analogy to make his point.  Disagree with the argument if you will, but please don't suggest that he's out of bounds to make it.

Personally, I felt that what SRLR did was like my (given that I'm a vegetarian) going off on Cindy for promoting Thanksgiving when it's a holiday predicated on cruelty to fowl.  I'd have a point, but it's not a point worth bludgeoning someone over unless they're being really nasty.  Ditto with SRLR's point.  Darksyde was pointing out that everyone is situated somewhere, with good points to make that will inevitably undercut others' concerns to some extent, and you have to give people some slack rather than claiming that one's particular vantage should always be the dominant one.  I'm up for recognizing all sorts of legitimate grievances and still being happy that people enjoy a holiday with family (or without family, for that matter.)

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:44:31 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


And what is wanted here... (3.00 / 14)

...is a sense of proportion, which you and DS appear to lack.

Your arguments by analogy fail badly because of the difference in severity of the matters mentioned.

It is the same WASP thing repeated and repeated.  It is ok to invade and destroy Afghanistan killing tens of thousands of innocents (at least!) because one small goup located there killed <4k USA citizens.  The paltry 2,000 death in Iraq are continually mentioned.  No one worries about the hundreds of thousands innocent Iraqi dead (maimed and tortured)

The average US citizen has no sense of proportion.  If you are not "just like me" then you are a lesser person, worh somewhat less consideration.

American native, Iraqi, Afghani, black, hispanic, gay, lesbian, they are simply not people to most americans.  And DKOS, liberal as it is, reeks of it.  There is much, much evidence of this.

That won't stop be getting troll rated by "superior" usaian who disagree with me and must be right simply because of who they are, usaian who are simply better in every way than the rest of humanity.

DKOS is turning me into an anti-american.

Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae

by Truckle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:36:39 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


If Dkos is turning you anti-American (3.50 / 4)

then I shudder to think what might happen if you visited Redstate.

(-2.75,-4.77) "Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose." Senator Barack Obama

by Sam I Am on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:10:49 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Ethnocentricity is a human basic (none / 0)

and so is xenophobia.  That's a bitter pill I've had to come to accept over the years... and I've found that it applies quite widely to liberals even though we think we're above it.  

But we're not.  Alas, it is a fundamental trait of organisms, and there is a long line of evolution that runs back to the first pulse of life on Earth that has ingrained such "me and my kind above all others" into our biology.

Yet we can do better.  Perhaps we should just listen to starkravinglunaticradical, listen to his/her story, keep our mouths shut, and ponder the pain being expressed even if it hurts us to hear it.  For most of us it's not easy acknowledging that we have warts of our own.

"Life is forever menaced by chaos and must restore balance with every intake of breath"-- Jean Gebser

by rangemaster on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:55:22 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


not so quite (2.14 / 14)

Darkside is an unmitigated ass, and I don't have a clue what concerns you think were undercut.   Pretending that his shallow invented-on-the-spot "offense" is just as valid as starkravinglunaticradical's, is neither accurate nor illuminating.  There is quite a lot of difference as well, between you ranting about people eating meat, and starkravinglunaticradical's view that using the term Trail of Tears, to describe your own life, diminutises an event that is tragic in the history of her people.  And that this offense is made more egregious by it's being used when writing about "Thanksgiving".  

by Tonedevil on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:17:55 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I'm not in PETA. but (4.00 / 6)

I'll bet that some people who are in PETA would disagree with you about the ongoing slaughter of fowl, etc., not being something one can mention in the same breath as this particular tragic episode.  (I have been on the receiving end of some incredible animal cruelty rants.)  My point being only that you seem to think that the comparison is less subjective than it is.

I've dislike Darksyde's dismissiveness in some of his comments, but I think that at worst he is a mitigated ass.  And I'm not "pretending" that his grievance is "just as valid" -- it was satirical for God's sake.

As for the question of whether "Trail of Tears" should be off-limits as a metaphor, I've addressed it elsewhere.  I tend to think that the use of analogies that don't contradict the tone of the underlying events is not off-limits.  If it is off-limits, it should be addressed in a different tone than was used here.  That's my etiquette preference, anyway.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:32:19 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Ignorantly misusing a term (4.00 / 9)

Is an offense best responded to with a correction.
That's called education.

I know the history and the fact that for a few years now (10? 15?) Thanksgiving is publicized as a day of mourning by Native Americans.  I remember what I understand to be the first demo at Plymouth Rock on this occasion, about 10 years ago.  It got front page coverage here in Massachusetts - but perhaps not in the midwest.

But the rant was the equivalent of using a bomb when a gentle correction would have sufficed.  Like most bombs, the collateral damage it caused was truly impressive, unneccessary, and wholly the responsibility of the person who used it.

by Cambridgemac on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:26:32 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I'ld say he's more of an unrepent ass (none / 0)

But his diaries are good.

In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

by yet another liberal on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


If he would repent... (none / 0)

that might be some mitigation.

by Tonedevil on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


DarkSyde is right on (none / 1)

The tone of this diary is twice as offensive as Ms. Sheehan's faux pas. You'd think the dim-witted author could find a better target to write about. Couldn't she just politely ask for an apology from Ms. Sheehan?

PC overkill is so damn obnoxious.

Terror must be maintained or the U.S.A. is doomed. It is the logic of history.

by Matt the Car Salesman on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:32:58 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


you are really jealous of strong, powerful (3.06 / 15)

women. I look forward to the day when your power here is diminished. This diarist could have found a more productive way to get through to Cindy Sheehan without a full frontal assult before she even had a dialogue with Ms. Sheehan, and on the eve of Thanksgiving when we spend time with family and are reminded of the family and friends we have lost. btw/ People speak up here daily at Dkos, perhaps your comment was meant that you feel that someone finally spoke up against Ms. Sheehan. I know you tired of all the Cindy diaries. With your clever wording I guess you can wiggle your way out of it. Or delete comments or even diaries. Or maybe just ignore confrontation like you normally do. oh yeah...Happy Thanksgiving.

*This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

by Chamonix on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:16:54 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I love strong, powerful women. (3.25 / 12)

Especially when they engage in piefights.

I do not have my own blog.

by Frank on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:24:49 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Frank makes an assinine reference to pie fights (none / 0)

what a surprise.

Gore2008 Petition and Support a Grassroots DNC

by TeresaInPa on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:37:01 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


"Jealous of strong, powerful women" (3.16 / 6)

LOL!

Thanks for the "1", and your brilliant commentary.

If you knew me, like many people do, you'd see how stupid your comment is.

"Strong, powerful women..."

You're talking to one.

And you seem to have a problem with that.


I wear the black in mournin' for the lives that could have been/ Each week we lose a hundred fine young men. -- Johnny Cash

by Plutonium Page on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:23:00 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


your slam to Maryscott O'Conner (4.00 / 7)

and MLW and now this. There was clearly another way or words for this diarist to get his/her point across to Ms. Sheehan in a more diplomatic way without this nasty confrontation. You being a strong powerful has nothing to do with how you feel about others that have the same trait. That doesn't work. And powerful doesn't mean owning a gun. A conversation is one thing..an all out assult is another. Think about it.

*This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

by Chamonix on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:39:45 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Knock This Shit Off. Now. (3.75 / 4)

I said last week when I saw you invoke some dispute between Page and Maryscott O'Connor into a thread where it had no relevance I said I thought it was beneath you.  Keep this up, and you'll prove me wrong that cheap shots really aren't beneath you.

Who the fuck cares that there may be some dispute between Page and Maryscott O'Connor?  Really, who the fuck cares?

The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

by DHinMI on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:39:03 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Wow! Shock and horror! (3.50 / 2)

Two strong minded people butted heads here on Dkos!  I've never seen that.

by newfie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:29:39 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


You're overcompensating for something... (2.18 / 11)

I wonder what that might be?  Hmmm?


I wear the black in mournin' for the lives that could have been/ Each week we lose a hundred fine young men. -- Johnny Cash

by Plutonium Page on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:40:46 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I have no idea what you are (2.83 / 6)

talking about...except avoiding my comment...here why don't you have a 1

*This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

by Chamonix on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:44:40 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Projecting (4.00 / 3)

You say that I have a problem with "strong, powerful women".

But then you say you're looking forward to the day when my "power here is diminished".

That's called projection.


I wear the black in mournin' for the lives that could have been/ Each week we lose a hundred fine young men. -- Johnny Cash

by Plutonium Page on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:47:35 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Eccch (4.00 / 3)

Please pass the ipecac-dosed popcorn.  If you were Tom DeLay and John Bolton fighting like this at least I'd enjoy it.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:52:32 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


The least they can do (4.00 / 4)

is bring out the tub of jello. Nothing better than strong women having a cat fight in jello, I say.

Pointing out that I am not, in fact, clever at all, is neither original nor clever.

by Not Clever At All on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:03:47 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I would smack you down for the (4.00 / 6)

"jello" reference, but there's plenty of strong women around here willing to do it instead. </snark>

I do get your joke, but (so far as I can tell), this isn't a silly fight they're having.  I would just, having enjoyed the writings of both posters, like it to stop.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:08:25 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


As the (4.00 / 6)

only female front pager you could have added a strong voice and written several diaries about women's issues. I read one here today about Indiana's Supremes supporting some bullshit unconstitutional law in regards to abortion and a horrific 24 hr. waiting period where the women are forced to look at awful pictures of aborted fetus's. That could have been front paged. As to your comment Page..I still don't get it. You have power here...I wish you would use it wisely. I still have a problem with you slamming other progressive, democrates, and other liberal blogs. And Cindy Sheehan started and is the mother of a movement that in time will prove how illegal and corrupt Bush and his entire Administration is...for that she deserves more respect than this assult and you (as a front pager)strong support of that assult. A lot of people here look up to you, you should chose your words carefully. Supporting Indians is one thing..supporting an assult on what could have been an innocent mistake is another.

*This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

by Chamonix on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Wha????????? (4.00 / 3)

Only women care about those issues?  And women are only allowed to care about those issues?

As a guy who wrote about abortion rights on the front page, I think you're insanely wrong about that.

And "Cindy Sheehan started and is the mother of a movement"???  What movement is that, the anti-war movement that existed before anyone had ever heard of Cindy Sheehan?

The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

by DHinMI on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:46:04 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Your father (none / 1)

Very, very wise. We had to read that book in college and it opened my eyes. Also, as soon as the diarist used those words, they provided an instant reminder of Chief Joseph's haunting words.

That said, if the diarist is sincere (and I'm not certain, given the fact the "picture" link goes nowhere) could part of that be a desire not to break the connection and power of that phrase from its original context?

That's admirable. The way he/she went about it, though? Not so much.

What's the clangor and the clamor? Throw BushCo in the slammer.

by MissAnneThrope on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:47:26 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


then let me ask (none / 0)

how you and your family spent your Thanksgivings?

by debraz on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:27:51 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Bur it's only a partial truth (none / 1)

And I strongly suspect it's spoken not by a member of an Indian community, but someone educated in the ways of Pan-Indianism (of which the Cherokee have been turned into the convenient prototype).

And Pan-Indianism is nothing but neo-colonialism. It's yet another way for the universities and the whites to colonize the Indian, by cooptng their histories (because the history of the Sioux is NOT the history of the Cherokees), their traditions, their ways of being, their cultures (because it isn't a single culture, it was originally thousands of cultures), etc.

Meteor Blades posted a perfectly excellent non-Pan-Indian critique of Thanksgiving the other day --- how does that not count? He spoke as a Seminole and in a way that resonates with many people I know. How does that not count, yet this diary does --- esp. given this one draws on classic Pan-Indian (AKA colonialist) notions of Indians?

And let me add, whether starkravng has her CDIB is meaningless, if that CDIB is Cherokee. If you all knew the history of the Cherokee Nation, you would understand why. You would understand why the fullblood native speaking members of the community are being totally screwed by the CDIB carrying far-flung non-members of the community.

IOW, I disagree. I usually respect and enjoy your posts, Page. But you're off base here. And I think you need to catch up on your reading and your knowledge of the diversity of native cultures.

Tom Coburn is a Big Fat Jerk

by cookiebear on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:36:45 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


No, you can't ... (3.50 / 14)

You have to consider how your misplaced rant will be abused, by the opponents of both you and Cindy Sheehan.

I found your attack uncalled for in the context of what Cindy wrote. Staying on message isn't easy, there are many concerns - but there's a reason why liberal rallies provide fodder for Daily Show laughs, and why the opposite side finds it so easy to gain power (though apparently not as easy to exercise it).

By undercutting Cindy here, based on what anyone would realize was not an intent from Cindy to cause injury or show disrespect, Stark also undercuts Cindy and her message "out there" - and that's unwise.
We can criticize, we can rant and we can rave. But Stark's post was occasioned by personal injury and suffering, not by Cindy's use of "Trail of tears". A Google on the exact phrase "Trail of tears" gives almost a million hits. And yes, the initial ones do deal with the Cherokee people and their trail of tears journey.

But in the U.S. today, there are families and friends of 2.100 servicemen and women suffering their own trails of tears, as well as the families and friends of the nearly 20.000 seriously wounded.

I can see no reason whatsoever for Cindy to have lost Stark through what she wrote.

"I don't do quagmires, and my boss doesn't do nuance."

by SteinL on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:39:11 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


And we do (none / 1)

have to give Cindy some major props, whether or not her diary was wrong in the first place. She proved she's a woman of class and dignity with her respectful, honest response to this diary.

by surfbird007 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:37:19 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Time for a joke (none / 0)

I celebrated Thanksgiving in the traditional way. I invited everyone in my neighborhood to my house, we had an enormous feast. And then I killed them and took their land. -- Jon Stewart

This is another BS controversy like "Happy Holidays". You Bill O'Reilly wannabe.

Joy to the World.

by Flippant on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


What part of this (none / 0)

don't you understand? Why don't you look it up since you evidently can't comprehend. You just used it again but the pain of the families of those over 2000 dead don't compare.

Sorry. They don't. There is no comparison between the two events. None.

by Cyphrus42 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:52:45 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Cyphrus, you have abused your privileges (none / 1)

as a DailyKos member by troll-rating my comments on these discussions, when it is clear that I am not a troll. For that reason, I do not find it topical in the least to engage in any kind of discussion with you.

"I don't do quagmires, and my boss doesn't do nuance."

by SteinL on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:08:28 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


You are an ASSHOLE (2.08 / 12)

Fuck You.

The future ain't what it used to be. Yogi Berra

by x on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:22:43 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I Had to Reply to Your Post (none / 0)

Please read my reply to your post HERE

by The Bulldog Manifesto on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:02:43 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Why is such a sacred (none / 0)

Native American event marked by a phrase in the English language?  What is the Native Language term for this ordeal?  I would think that the language of the invaders would be repugnant to most Native Americans?  But what do I know, I celebrate Thanksgiving with gusto.

I kinda like Howard Dean, it's those wild eye crazies that came with him I wonder about!

by redlief on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:57:47 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

I'm outraged at the outrage! (2.75 / 16)

First, I should say I'm typing this without the benefit of Cindy's original post - it's been deleted, apparently.

Second, starkravinglunaticradical, go get some help.  You should really see someone about that. Don't be goin all Tim McVeigh on us, else we'll have Gore Vidal writing letters of praise about your heroics and dKos will be completely discredited. Let's not go there, shall we not?

Third, I truly never believed I'd have a chance to use one of my favorite GOP lines from the Mean Years (we really do need a name/phrase to tag Bush's reign with - it's been that tragic) in critiquing a dKos reader/troll, but alas, a blog post that requires immediate and extremely condescending put-down!

This response post/diary/diatribe/whatever is demented and sad, but it is also hilarious.  Do people even think 'how dare you' any more these days, much less actually type it into a blog?  I even had a tough time typing it just now - I had to cut & paste it from your diary.  How dare you?! How dare you double dip! Is that how it goes?

I don't believe I've ever read a more self-absorbed posting in the entirety of my blogging lifetime.  This posting stepped right out of a GOP attack ad - like the Howard Dean liberal-coffee-drinking-volvo-driving-whatever-else commercials. It's too ridiculous to be true.

Whoa is me! Whoa is me! My ancestors are dead!

And? So are mine. So what?  It seems like talking about a genocide of your ancestors from how many hundreds of years ago? like it happened yesterday to your immediate family seems a bit...overdone? Loewen and Zinn have written well on the genocide, but this diary is just trashy.  It smacks of opportunism.

And, are you actually attempting to compare the feeling of loss for a bunch of your long-dead ancestors with that of a mother who lost her child a few years ago? I mean, if you had an extremely close relative die in the very recent past on the 'Trail of Tears', I might could begin to comprehend the deranged insanity of your posting, but this is ridiculous.

Oh, I get it - this is like 'Punked' or something right?  This is like, Ashton Kutcher posing as a blog troll, right?

Ha-ha!  You got me, you slick guy, you!  Ha-ha!

You are on Indian land

Are you serious with this stuff?  Last time I checked, there were still a few pieces of desert designated 'Indian Land' of some type, but I can't imagine it added up to a whole lot of acreage. But if it makes you feel better - yes, we're all on Indian land.  OK?  Feel better?  Almost the entirety of the world is on Indian land! Is your family of Indians supposed to be treated differently from the rest of the Indians on the planet? Is your family better than every other Indian family? Inquiring minds want to know.

As it stands, I don't feel particularly indebted to any Indians. Maybe I've had it wrong this whole time, though - I need to forget about all this womens rights and civil rights and human rights nonsense and stick to Indian Affairs.  Hey, I can appreciate a good casino like the next guy.

When you come to understand the degree of sacrifice
 

Do what?  How did the natives sacrifice anything?  They got their asses murdered. Is that the new 'sacrifice'? So, the 12 million victims of the Holocaust and the 10 million victims of the North American genocide were all sacrificing for the greater good? Did they do it willingly, by choice, of their own volition? Does it matter?

And what other nonsense did you spew?  'Trampled your heart' or something equally atrocious?  I can't go back and read it again - it's too awful.  You been listening to too much N'Sync.

This diary has to be a joke.  It has to be.

Get over yourself.

War Raider Nation.  War no War on Iraq.  Out!
<Rack 'im!>

Join us for the Terrorism Walk!

by shmooth on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:45:26 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Your casino remark will no doubt (4.00 / 8)

get you troll rated to oblivion. Regrettable in that you are the only one I've seen, and I haven't scanned every remark, to raise the point that there is a limit to apppeals to history. There is something awful about this calculus of suffering: the objection to anyone using the term holocaust to describe Rwanda, for instance.

Soon we'll run out of words, and argue mute.

Cindy Sheehan should be Time's Person of the Year

by melvin on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:55:16 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


The Middle Passage (4.00 / 5)

ended well before the Trail of Tears took place (I mean the specific historical event, not the overall slaughter and displacement of Native Americans), and yet African Americans still grieve over it for understandable reasons.

So while there are surely limits to historical grievances, there are also limits to those limits.  We don't have to belittle the tragedy of the expulsion from Florida to agree that another person's failure to know about it or give it as much weight as someone directly aggrieved by it doesn't deserve a thrashing.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:21:47 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Why? (4.00 / 2)

I don't gamble, but I appreciate a good casino.  If I'm supposed to feel all sorts of indebted to American Indians for their 'sacrifice', then casinos about all I can think of at the moment, but it's not really their 'sacrifice' so much as their 'contribution'.  Is even that objectionable to some people here?

Does free speech still exist on dKos?  I heard it left the NFL today, is it gone here, too?

p.s. Samantha Power is a strong advocate of using the term 'genocide' where it's appropriate - not just for genocides larger than the Holocaust represented. I believe the dude who coined the word felt the same way.

Join us for the Terrorism Walk!

by shmooth on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:22:25 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Nah, (1.50 / 1)

That's what theasaurus' are for.

by ratdg1 on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:58:06 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Ironic (4.00 / 2)

While agree with your overall thrust that the original diarist was out of line to hurt Cindy Sheehan by using her as an opportunistic target, your comment goes beyond what is necessary to engage the diarist and instead is callous and even cruel.  You could have made your point without attacking the sincerity of the diarist's beliefs and without coldly dismissing and disacknowledging the pain of having lost one's ancestors to unnatrual (genocidal) causes.  

by BPK on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:13:56 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


I agree, in part... (3.00 / 4)

I did, in fact, intend to be callous and cruel. I didn't quite reach the level of callousness and cruelty I was trying to achieve, but I feel I got close. I felt this person deserved an extra large helping of scorn. Get it? Scorn? Aw, nevermind.

One of the first things I learned about blogging was "don't dish it out if you can't take it."  The raver dished it - let's see if s/he can take it.  If s/he can't take it, then maybe her/his next diary will be a little more civil. Funny how things tend to work out like that. Explicit instructions are not even needed. After experiencing a serious case of hurtful blowback, authors all of a sudden find that they 'Preview' and re-think their posts a few extra times before dropping the 'Post' hammer.  They actually take some time to consider the full impact of what they're about to say. That can be a very good thing, in my humble opinion.

You might have a point on some of the other stuff, too - not sure, but in general, I haven't got time for the pain of mourning the loss of my decades-long-dead ancestors/family/whatever. I just don't. I choose not to wrap myself up in things I can't control. I'm sure my family were great peeps - really - but I can barely take care of myself and my now-living family.  How the heck am I supposed to find the time and energy to mourn people I've never met?  To each their own. I prefer to concentrate on the things I can help affect positive change for - people who are still living and who are yet to live. Call me crazy.

Join us for the Terrorism Walk!

by shmooth on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


You don't seem to have tried to understand (3.80 / 5)

The part of the north american continent that the USA today occupies was in fact land already occupied by numerous native peoples.  Perhaps they didn't 'own' it in the capitalist sense of ownership, but neither did the non-native people (largely from western europe) that murdered, sequestered and drove the natives from their land.

Why should not native Americans feel outraged, even today, as the US government does not abide by the treaties that we largely forced upon these tribes and nations of native americans.

Yes, we all, even today, bear some responsibility for what happened historically and what continues to happen today to these native peoples - who are declared under US law to be 'sovereign nations'.  

You sum up your diatribe against 'starkravinglunaticradical: This diary has to be a joke.

You, my fellow Kossack, are the insensitive, disrespecting joke.  But his post was not a joke and this isn't a matter of humor.

"pay any price, bear any burden"

by JimPortlandOR on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:14:22 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


We are progressives, right? (4.00 / 6)

Look, we (liberals) have got to drop this politically correct B.S. about things in the past.  There have been travesties, yes.  Things that should be taught and learned so that they will never happen again.  But what our ancestors did is not something that we, the people of the present and future, should feel personally guilty about (as a nation, yes, but not the way it's being characterized here).

Bickering amongst ourselves about these things does nothing to further advance our cause.  We are called liberals and progressives because we look FORWARD and look to change things.  shmooth may have been over the top in his response, but I would side with him before I'd give into these "guilt trips" that are constantly being forced.  They only aid the further racial, ethnic, class, gender, etc. divisions that keep the hate spewing forth.

And as for the original diary, I can tell that it isn't an "infiltrator" from the Right...but it sure does sound like something that could be conjured up in their usual War on Words that constantly wage.  It was a metaphor, for chrissakes, that's used in so many places and ways (as already noted).  I think it was obvious from the beginning that Cindy meant no offense, whatsoever (especially since she has NEVER purposely offended like that EVER).  This diary deserves a troll rating itself.  At least the diarist should have given it some more thought and  he/she would have realized there was no intention to offend and should have just left a comment saying that it had possibly offending remarks.

"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it." -Gandhi

by midvalley on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:35:53 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


ack, gotta preview.. (none / 0)

"shouldn't feel personally guilty about"

"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it." -Gandhi

by midvalley on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:38:26 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


too late (none / 0)

ok, it's too late for me to be posting anymore.  i was right with what i said originally.

"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it." -Gandhi

by midvalley on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:47:07 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


A little name-calling...always a good thing.... (none / 1)

I wasn't the one talking about ownership.

I didn't say anything about who can and cannot feel outraged, and how much, over US Government actions.  What we're talking about here is the raver's reaction to Cindy Sheehan. Let's get it together, folks.

We all bear some responsibility? Profound.

But seriously, was this diary a joke? Is the joke on me? C'mon y'all - this ain't right. Enough's enough.  What's the deal? Ashton, is that you?

Join us for the Terrorism Walk!

by shmooth on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:04:37 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Save it for sports (3.33 / 3)

That kind of in-your-face-I'm-not-some-sissy-PC- liberal doesn't work well on Rome, nor does it work well here.

I don't happen to agree with starkravinglunatic on this one, but the issues are real.

"...leave it to our bureaucrats and our police to see that our papers are in order. At least spare us their morality when we write."

by rjontiveros on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:05:34 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


It does work here, as well as on Rome... (3.20 / 5)

ravinglunatic needed to be put in his/her place for this outrageous post.  Now that it's been done, others who were intimidated by the sheer audacity of the post might feel free to speak their minds.

Others have commented correctly - level a legitimate, even passionate criticism? Sure. But haul off on Cindy Sheehan - Cindy Sheehan - like she's some two-bit thug looking to mug old ladies? C'mon. That mess is outrageous on its face.

I'm ashamed of what that raving person wrote. Ashamed. No, I'm not sad - I'm not crying - I'm not whining - I'm not even feeling the raver's pain - I'm pissed!  It's highly offensive to me.

This lady, Cindy Sheehan, is going to bat for all of us, and some hack tries to step up for his/her 15 minutes by bashing the Mother Theresa of the anti-war movement for something she did with no malice? Shiiiiiii*. Hack best come correct with that mess next time, lest s/he be rhetorically burned again. Hack thinks we're gonna sit around while s/he trots out that tired rhetoric - hack gots another thing comin'.  Cause we gots Cindy's back. Ya heard?

At long last Mr./Ms. ravinglunatic, have you no sense of shame?

Join us for the Terrorism Walk!

by shmooth on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:37:20 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


Rush! You cared enough (3.00 / 3)

to come get an account on dailyKos.

Welcome, bro!

In troubling times, it's good to read true stories about real people doing good things. HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:14:50 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Well Good Morning America, (2.58 / 12)

(this is Chicago!).

This public acceptance of CIndy's apology should, by all rights and means, be posted as a diary on its own. Alas, since this diary didn't go up until after midnight last night, this is my only way of responding.

First things first: Cindy I accept your apology, and as I have stated repeatedly, I know it was not your intent to offend, but you nevertheless did--however unwittingly. My intent was to point out that you did (why your comment in particular turned out to be the one that set me off the way I did, oh, I dunno, could be that every other attempt I have made on this site to draw attention to the fact that there is very little sensitivity to any Native issues in this forum have been poo-pooed, ignored or similarly disregarded in the same childish and mean-spirited way that we witness in 90% of these comments).

For the other Indians who have come in and taken issue with my "approach"--you're entitled to disagree and I appreciate you weighing in. But hey, you know, if everyone in the caucasian community (or any other ethnic group) were of the same mind on any single issue, we certainly would not be in the national crisis we currently face, now woud we? I have stated repeatedly that I speak for myself, but that I also  know for a fact my views are shared by many, many other Indians (most of whom are too damn busy dealing with issues like youth suicide in Native communities, or sovereignty issues, or burying the dead in South America to be called in here "as cavalry" in my defense; I would not so much as consider asking them to do so).

But we talk about these things all the time. Be thankful for the fact that we don't subject "outsiders" to those conversations, because anyone who considered this diary offensive, well, you certainly would not take a liking to what is said behind closed doors on some  of these issues, but that's our business, not yours. There will never be agreement in our community about whether the "stoic indian," the "all-forgiving, mild-mannered font of wisdom and composure Indian sprinkling your lives with Hopi prayers and Navajo prophecies " or the "go fuck yourself and the horse you rode in on jackpine Savage-AIM Indian" approach is more effective,  more proper or whatever. I see my approach as somewhere in the middle--and re-reading the diary today, I see that it is laced with as much compassion and support for Cindy Sheehan as it is with righteous indignation at her careless use of language. I have no regrets.

With nearly 400 (largely, though not entirely worthless) comments in this diary, it's loading about as slow as molasses on the front porch in Minnesota winter, so I have not read all these comments carefully and focused instead on Cindy's comments. I repeat, I accept your apology, Cindy; I don't think it was necessary to remove your diary, but will not accuse you of "overreacting" either. For me, the matter between us--that is between you and me--is settled and there are no hard feelings on my part.

As I stated in one of my comments to you: I have learned from you, my life has been enriched by your work, I am so sorry for your loss and i hope against hope that you prevail in your efforts to stop this war.You have my continued support--and you had it last night, too. I am a firm believer in "forgive and forget" (and to the troll-raters and flame artists ready to pounce on that one: don't even go there--forgive America for what it's done? Yeah, sure, just as soon as a public apology is forthcoming, not only from the US government [the legislation on that one is dormant in the house and senate], but also from its people--and this, too, I have stated in comments on this site; you cannot be forgiven for what you coninue to deny, deny, deny. And you cannot be forgiven unless you ask for forgiveness. That is not my mandate: that is the mandate of your God, not mine. But it applies, and it is one point of intersection I see between Christian beliefs and my own). Any American whose "apologies" are sincere in this regard would, imo, have to be already thinking about the next step: that would be reparations. If that is not the next step, then  I can only conclude one of two things: either the people's apology is not sincere, or the gravity of the crimes and offenses is still not clear. Maybe listening to that Democracy Now! link I provided there will help. Check it out.

(At the risk of sounding like a broken record, which is apparently necessary in this forum, I repeat: Cindy I sincerely accept your apology and thank you for that).

I never imagined, after I turned in around 3AM my time, that I'd wake up at the center of a dKos metascandal, complete with the troll-rating games, the VERY sloppy and careless readings of my words, the rallying around the next human individual who's expected to come riding in on a white steed and single-handedly save this country from the consequences of its history --whether it's Cindy or Fitz or whoever, it's always someone who is expected to come in and clean up the mess that we have all, in our collective "falling asleep at the wheel" made of this country over the years, particularly in the past 25 or so. That's one hell of a burden to place on anyone's back, much less on the back of a grieving mother from Vacaville or a single special prosecutor with more than one job to do.

Think about that, my detractors, next time you consider writing an indignant diary on an internet blog a high crime or misdemeanor. Y'all put one hell of a burden on these folks.

A few things: No, I will not change the title of this diary and no it was not written  for the sake of "sensationalism": I repeat (for those amongst you who apparently skimmed or skipped over certain things ): my intent was to sit down and write a diary which included "action items"--as previously announced in a series of diaries titled "Greetings from Turtle Island", previous installations here, here and here
. The intended title of that diary has been in my mind for weeks already, it was to have been titled "Attitudes of Gratitude" -- and I still intend to write it, though that certainly is NOT going to happen today.

I always read Cindy's diaries--I dare say I have probably read most of what she has written, not only here, but throughout the net. I have, in fact, written in support of here (see link at original post). So before I started writing my "Attitudes of Gratitude" post, I read Cindy's. I stopped DEAD IN MY TRACKS when I arrived at "trail of tears". "Wtf? Is it possible? How dare you, how fucking dare you?" Those were my thoughts. I cannot change them and I will not pretend this was not my original gut reaction. That is how the title came about. No calculated attempts to "strategize" and create a ruckus or anything else. It was like a kick in the stomach, especially in consideration of the way that every previous attempt to address the issue of the liberal community's collective  indifference and insensitivity to these matters has been summarily dismissed, dissed and dumped down the denial hole.  

What has created this controversy is not this diary, it's the commentators combined with the dramatic deletion of an entire diary (when changing the term "trail of tears" would have done the trick), the subsequent diaries and onandon. My comment on the troll-rating of my comments, none of which can be objectively seen to be "inflammatory" 'or "trollish"--comments with which you are entitled to disagree, but which are not worthy of "troll-rating": Oh fucking well. To return the favor to some of you, "Get over it."  Your reactions are further proof of the need for this diary and vindication of the forceful approach that is needed before most of you pay any attention whatsoever to Indian issues. Sweet grass and dove feathers is NOT doing the trick. You apparently need the hammer on the head approach in order to so much as CONSIDER these issues, much less pursue them or be moved by them.

And there you have it: my intent, in all of the diaries previously posted here, has always been to get you thinking and to get you talking about precisely these issues. Well, I sure as hell never hoped to do it in this way, and frankly suspected this diary would slide into your memory hole the same way every other one has done. So surprise, surprise. I'm glad it's got you talking.

Today, I give thanks for that.

"I think the President should look across the country and find the most qualified man, woman, or minority."-Trent Lott

by starkravinglunaticradical on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:37:12 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


I don't get it.... (4.00 / 2)

I read the original diary, and then I wanted to see the picture and read the article that you posted. In order to see the picture, I had to fill out some form for the magazine. I did that. So you are genuine, in your earlier support for Cindy both physically in person, and morally in your writing.

What I fail to understand is your vehemence at her use of the phrase, which you probably knew was unintentional. Can you explain your visceral reaction to that to yourself? If someone newly acquainted said to me "How is your mother doing?" just as a piece of conversation, I would not be offended because my mother passed away several years ago. We all make allowances for unintentional utterances. So if you claim you can justify your gut reaction at her unintentional use of the phrase that you found so offensive, you are seriously in need of self introspection.

And despite your claims to the contrary, it is plain as daylight that you used your outrage to write a controversial diary, perhaps to mix it up with your polemics. Do you feel the same outrage at the massacre of the Cambodians or the Armenians? How about the Hindus and Muslims in India during the partition?

I am originally from India. Thanksgiving is more a celebratory culinary event for the Indian American community than commemorating the wellbeing of the original pilgrims, or the massacre of native Indians (why did Columbus sail the wrong way and why are native Americans called Indians - I take mild offense at that!). While we must not forget the ills of the past, we need much more to prevent them in the future.

by Suvro on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:05:12 PM EST
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One explanation I have heard differs (none / 0)

I have heard that in his diaries, Columbus wrote that the people he encountered were Columbus called them "gentes en Dios,"  The People of God.  

by otto on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:13:21 PM EST
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Ugh. (4.00 / 5)

I'm going to give you a four, because you came back and engaged in a substantive way, and most people never do that.  You deserve recognition and props for that.

But I think your refusal to take any responsibility for contributing to the flamey nature of this thread with your unnecessary attack on an individual person is disappointing, IMO.  Cindy has apologized for inadvertently offending you.  I think you now owe her an apology for couching your wish to educate us as an attack on her.  And yes, that is what it was.

hpe

by hyperbolic pants explosion on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:19:07 PM EST
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Another Yuk (4.00 / 2)

Not changing the title of your diary shows you have no desire to work within this community nor do you care about the other people here at this site. People have responded and from what I can see, the message of your diary was fine, but using Cindy wasn't necessary and quite frankly, not very classy of you. Choosing not to change the title after Cindy apologized to you and you made her feel like crap just makes you look like cruel.

I promised myself to keep my mouth shut, but this is a very disappointing response from you. You have quite the ego as well -- thank you for being here, Stark, so YOU can get us all thinking.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." -- Sinclair Lewis

by Dunbar on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:13:51 PM EST
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Aren't you afraid... (4.00 / 6)

...you'll explode from being so full of yourself?  Unbelievable response!  You don't know why her comment set you off?  My guess is, you used her name and popularity here to garner attention, so I don't buy your:

No, I will not change the title of this diary and no it was not written  for the sake of "sensationalism"

An insulting and ugly title and you know it...sensationalism.  

You insult 90% of the people who participated in your diary (hey, do you think you might have offended any of them?):

With nearly 400 (largely, though not entirely worthless) comments...

How did you know they were largely worthless?  After all, you said:

so I have not read all these comments carefully

And then you have the nerve to say:

I repeat (for those amongst you who apparently skimmed or skipped over certain things)

Maybe they, like you, knew it was worthless without reading it.  

And finally, my first reaction when I read your diary...who in the fuck do you think you are?  Fine, you were personally offended.  Period.  So where do you get off saying:

What has created this controversy is not this diary, it's the commentators combined with the dramatic deletion of an entire diary (when changing the term "trail of tears" would have done the trick),

Besides the fact that you don't have editorial control at Daily Kos, do you even recognize your own hypocrisy:

No, I will not change the title of this diary...

Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

by BarbinMD on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:36:42 PM EST
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Oh, yuck. (none / 0)

What a self-serving and egocentric response.  

Word o' the Day:  obtuse.  

Shouldn't have clicked on the link you put on Sharon Jumper's diary.  Damn.  

Jesus + Fetus = SCOTUS (math by Jon Stewart)

by lightiris on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:31:16 PM EST
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1509 words!? 6863 characters?! (none / 1)

Can you write a comment that isn't a diary?

Brevity is a wonderful thing. A haiku would've been good.

by agentcooper on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:11:34 PM EST
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And again (none / 1)

A comment in her diary would've done the trick.

by waitingtoderail on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:35:10 PM EST
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You DID (none / 0)

use Cindy poorly. You accepted HER apology? You apologized for inadvertantly offending her - where is your apology for writing your diary in an offensive way to begin with. I found it interesting to learn that you do not speak for all Native Americans. Your diary suggested you did. I'm planning to do volunteer work on a reservation. The Indians I spoke to were encouraging. Would you be?

by anotherCt Dem on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:51:23 PM EST
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Thank you stark raving et al. (2.44 / 9)

One of the best, most informative and moving diaries  that I've read here.

People are upset for two main reasons:

They don't like having their sentimental Disney thanksgiving view shattered.

They see Sheehan as the saviour of the free world. These same people also saw Fitzgerald in the same light and last week saw Murtha as the one.

The sentimental Disneyview is all pervasive and encroaches into every aspect of WASP life - it is the sugar coating on the brutal pill that is American, so called, values.

I have nothing against Sheehan and see her as a good person but that doesn't mean that she is above any form of critiscism.

Again thankyou for opening my eyes. - as a non-American I now understand thanksgiving 100% more than I did yesterday and I now want to understand it more tomorrow.

'Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it'. - GBS

by stevej on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:00:24 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

a picture is worth 1,000 words? (1.58 / 12)

Then why post the picture AND the thousand words?

And I'm NOT on your land!

Get over it.

by Fishgrease on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:24:32 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Where are you then, (1.25 / 4)

On an oil rig?

Get a clue.  Here's some advice:

Ingredients:
1 egg
1 cup water

Instructions:
Boil

Sign the petition for an open mid-term convention!

by MadCasey on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:31:07 AM EST
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you know (4.00 / 2)

not all kossacks live in the US.

but we dance to the music, and we dance

by chopper on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:02:27 AM EST
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wtf? (1.20 / 5)

Oil rig?

Egg?

If I get drunk will any of that make sense?

by Fishgrease on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:34:11 AM EST
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You sir, (2.25 / 4)

are guilty of making an unproductive and mean-spirited comment, worthy of a troll-rating.  Lucky for you, I kept you above water with a "1," but I don't doubt that your comment will disappear soon enough.

The recipe, on the other hand, is a commen gesture here on dKos that generally means I cannot even begin a discussion which starts with your hopeless comment, and therefore I will post a recipe instead, since it will be just as useful--and no doubt MORE useful--than any sort of logic against you.

In your case, I chose "how to boil an egg," because I'm sure you would hurt yourself with anything more complicated.

oh, and I forgot to mention:
 - Leave it in the boiling water for one minute before eating.

Sign the petition for an open mid-term convention!

by MadCasey on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:38:42 AM EST
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sorry, but he's right and you're wrong (none / 0)

the bulk of the US territory is not "indian land" in any legal sense.

the legitimately elected representatives of the native american nations uniformly and officially currently recognize the US as a legitimate, sovereign entity.

there are many disputes between native american nations and the US, but recognition of the US as a political entity which is currently legitimately occuping its territory... isn't one of them.

by yellowdoggie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:47:48 AM EST
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Oh man its Antonin ScAlito (1.75 / 4)

Come to get me!

In any legal sense??

lol THANK YOU for clarifying the heart of the matter.  Here's a brain freeze: native american land was NOT native american land "in any legal sense," ever.

A bunch of white fanatics who couldn't even get along with their own society coming to this land and writing down "this is mine" on a piece of paper and calling it "LAW" doesn't make it theirs by default or god-given.  Oh, that's right, they thought it was god-given.  Wrong again, I guess.

If you think that the "legitimately elected representatives" of various tribes had any choice in the matter after being raped and pillaged for decades, you're insane.

Look up the Indian Removal Act, and the circumstances which led to it and followed it, then come back and try to pretend you know history.

Sign the petition for an open mid-term convention!

by MadCasey on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:00:05 AM EST
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i know all about the indian removal act... (none / 1)

... and no, i'm not talking about the treaties the tribes signed in the 19th century, essentially at gunpoint.

i'm talking about the fact that in the present -- i.e., the 21st century, what's relevant to us today in our actual lives -- the native american nations have all decided that it's in their interest to move forward in the current legal framework, however unjustly we got here, rather than contesting it.

by yellowdoggie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:11:17 AM EST
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Yeah (none / 1)

and if you could figure out a single method by which anything other than "moving into the current legal framework," you'd be Time's "Person of the Year," The ACLU's "Libertarian of the year," Harvard Alumni Magazine's "Attorney of the Year," and generally "Humanitarian of the Year," by a whole slew of other groups.

Why?  Because it would be impossible to legally contest these ridiculous precedents.  How do you think the "current legal framework" got here?  Magic?  It was imposed.

And speaking of which, who says just because its futile to challenge the status quo that people still can't be sore about it?  You're taking the despair of the Native American people in the face of our mountains of red tape as a victory, and its incredibly unfortunate.

Sign the petition for an open mid-term convention!

by MadCasey on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:25:12 AM EST
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Land granted by royal patent (none / 0)

elsewhere in the world is similarly illegitimate, for that matter, but you can still be shot for trespassing.

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:18:02 AM EST
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Are you starkraving? (none / 1)

I couldn't care less if you cannot even begin a discussion with me. I wasn't talking to you in the first place. And as for the oil rig comment, do you drive an automobile? Ever ride in one? Heat your home with natural gas or fuel oil? Ever travel by air? We need oil rigs and we need liberals in the energy business. Or are you one of these liberals who are forced to burn hydrocarbons... by society?

by Fishgrease on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:48:09 AM EST
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Listen (none / 1)

The "oil rig comment" was meant as a joke, because you said you're not on Native American land.  My response was, essentially, "well where the hell are you?"

The term "oil rig" commonly refers to the sea-bound scaffolding which drills into the oceanbed in order to tap into petroleum.  Since it is not on American land, that's the most likely place I could think of for you to live where you're not on land that we chased Native Americans off of.

Seriously man, stop talking.  I told you you might hurt yourself.

And, oh yes, I am oppressed and resent being forced to use petroleum products.  Please stop abusing me, mr. big bad business man, I can hardly stand it any longer!
</snark<br> C:/Get a life.doc>

Sign the petition for an open mid-term convention!

by MadCasey on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:09:26 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


So lets get back to the subject (2.00 / 2)

So... you think it was correct for starkraving to develop flames coming out his ass because Cindy used the term "trail of tears"?

Or are you just here to score insult points against other liberals?

It's like when the Jehova's Witnesses come to my door and ask, "Don't you want to go to Heaven? Not if its with a bunch of Jehova's Witnesses, no!

by Fishgrease on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:31:34 AM EST
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Read my post upthread (3.00 / 2)

Hint: its ONE COMMENT above your first, devastatingly lucid, wildly effective, not-at-all insulting comment that went something like:

"Pictures?  Them's better than wurds cuz yain't got 'ta reed.  And I ain't on yer land, Injun!"

Anyway if you read my original comment you would know that I disagree completely with Stark, but not nearly as much as I do with your insulting "I'm NOT on your land" comment.

But, just so we're square, I don't have anything against oil--only the people who pretend there's no other alternative--and I don't have anything against you.  You've been entirely civil most of this time, aside from your original post, while I, on the other hand, have been an asshole; and for that, I apologize.  Its late, and I'm missing thanksgiving.

I hope yours is a happy one, though.

Sign the petition for an open mid-term convention!

by MadCasey on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:38:13 AM EST
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I work in the oilfield (none / 0)

I don't need to be told the definition of "oil rig".... 99% of which are land based, by the way.

Again. I wasn't initially talking to you. Go write recipes or whatever. You're the joke.

by Fishgrease on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:20:29 AM EST
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Off topic, but is this the same fishgrease (none / 0)

that posts on AAR?

I remember hearing a lot about this fishgrease poster on the majority report "blog".

by agentcooper on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:53:09 PM EST
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starkraving is an idiot (1.33 / 3)

this righteous shit has made cindy remove her diary to placate you. happy now with your "victory"? what did this achieve, one strident harpy OWNING all the pain, keeping it ALL to themselves.

it is pathetic. it is infantile. you may not need a history lesson on the trail of tears but you sure as hell need to work on emotional maturity

how dare you!

by kingfelix on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:36:58 PM EST
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Just the title alone (1.00 / 2)

is worthy of a zero.  "Emotional maturity" all right.  Try to find a little empathy, particularly on a day of mourning.

by Quilty on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:50:24 PM EST
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link to offending cindy sheehan site? (none / 1)

i know you disagree with sheehan, but you could've linked to what offended you so much, i've googled it and not found a sign of it

by kingfelix on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:16:09 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


cindy used (4.00 / 3)

the phrase "trail of tears" in her rec'd diary.

Sick of the mess they find/On their desert stage/And the bravery of being out of range. -- r. waters

by BiminiCat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:17:25 AM EST
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There's no one visible in that picture... (none / 1)

... holding any sign at all.

What are you talking about?

by yellowdoggie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:12:06 AM EST
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Lifeways (none / 0)

First time I've heard that word and it took but half a second to realize it is a good one. Unlike "lifestyle" which characterizes the shallowness of today's consumer culture. I don't think you'll find many Native Americans who refer to themselves as "consumers".

It must be very hard to maintain the history and memories of the things you have lost in the last few centuries. To live knowing that a return to that time and those lifeways is impossible must be very hard. I will remember today that many human beings on this continent are not thankful at all and for very good reasons.

A pessimist sees a glass half empty. I see a paper cup with holes punched in it.

by Paper Cup on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 04:12:29 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

I was going to be angry... (none / 1)

that this caused me to miss the opportunity to read Cindy's diary.  But it is Thanksgiving, I'll get over it.

I'm just getting up this morning, I'm in the UK on hoiday.  I was considering trying to go to Plymouth today--but then I was thinking that I really don't want to learn much more about a group of religious zealots who had a lot of bad characteristics. I would not have survived and thrived in their world.  I don't think I want to celebrate them, either.  They aren't my ancestors--my ancestors were getting trounced by their relatives in Ireland throughout history.

But--I think a Thanksgiving holiday is worthy.  I thank the universe that we are in a time and place where we can have differences of opinion.  I thank the universe that Cindy came along and did what she did, because our country is going backwards--currently using our citizens, native and imported--to crush another society.  

I thank the universe that we will all get over this dust up, and work together to remove these criminals from office.  Because we can.  Whatever your start was to get to this point, we are here today and we can only change the future.  

by mem from somerville on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:11:30 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


read my article on: (none / 0)

http://www.michaelmoore.com/

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:27:42 AM EST
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Thank you, Cindy. Rock steady. (none / 0)

-6.88/-5.64 Right between Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama. Dudes! I am sooo into a like totally awsome place!

by John West on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 05:53:56 AM EST
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i will (none / 0)

by CindySheehan on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:05:26 AM EST
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history lessons and personal grief (none / 1)

I want to acknowledge your deep frustration at how little most people know about Native American issues.  I was aware of two trails of tears, because I received a fairly progressive high school education, and today you have taught me about a third.  I am aware of the Day of Mourning because I live in Massachusetts, where later today there will be a ceremony to that effect at the statue of Massasoit overlooking Plymouth Rock.

I am sorry that Cindy's casual comment hurt you so badly, and that the very casualness of the comment is a large part of the hurt, but paradoxically I am grateful that you took that anger and channelled it into this diary, which will educate many people today with an important history lesson, as well as bring us closer to understanding you and your life and heritage.

However, you also could have posted all this information, including your anger about how people thoughtlessly use the Trail of Tears term, without the hook of the attack on Cindy, especially since it seems likely that your grief was not actually triggered by Cindy.  It was already there, and maybe it is always there, and maybe it deserves to be always there, and I am not judging that.  Maybe it hurts more because you stood in solidarity with Camp Casey and you expect more of her than from other people.  Maybe it would have hurt less if it had come from another poster.  Either way, you have your right to be sensitive about the matter and to express that here.  I'm not sure why your original plan was to be sweet as bread pudding.  Lids should not be placed on grief, especially on significant anniversaries.  Let it all out.

As I said in a post on Cindy's thread, I do not want to compare your experience with hers even though it may seem obvious to you that you have lost many and she has lost "only" one.  Grief is too personal and the depth of it cannot be measured by people outside of it.  I want to respect the grief of both of you.  I wish I could embrace and comfort you both.

And I hope when this is all over I hope you and Cindy will still be on the same side and working together on the many political goals we share.

Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:01:48 AM EST
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Buffalo county, SD is worse than 3rd world (none / 1)

Life expectancies are about 2/3rds of the national average.

by jfern on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:16:22 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

understand (none / 0)

Hi. I think you are totally justified in ranting. I would hope us "white" people have this awareness of what has happened to the natives here.

I for one didn't know about the whole history of "Thanksgiving" and...it just sucks. I like to read about native Americans and it saddens me that we have lost a lot of this rich way of life not to mention these mostly peaceful people.

I understand the significance of Trail of Tears and I understand why you would not want anyone else to use it. I saw that Cindy withdrew her diary and apologized and I think she understands, too.

It's a strong person who can apologize like that. I think we've all learned something here and I thank you for sharing.

I don't know if the native American people will ever be fully vindicated in our lifetimes, and I don't even know what that would look like, but, the best thing to do is to go forward.

btw, years ago I heard Wilma Mankiller speak and I wished SHE could be our president. She really spoke simply and plainly and was obviously committed to and concerned about taking care of "her" people. I was deeply moved and inspired.

"go in peace"
L

by lesnussman on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 06:47:28 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Let's see the crimes of the past... (none / 0)

Which cannot be undone versus the crimes of the present that can. Hmmm...
Would you like your medal now or later???
Pax, Steve

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer

by Instant Dogma on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:03:32 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Stark, I hear you (none / 1)

Canadian here. I've worked for First Nations, within a political process in this country that was trying to get an inherent right to self-government recognized in our Constitution. I've travelled to First Nations communities all over this land, seen the destitution, the hopelessness, the self-directed violence and despair. The struggle to save disappearing languages.  Heard the extinct languages catalogued. Participated in sweat-lodges, prayer circles, celebrations. I was an atheist who learned how to pray, never to ask, as we do in the White World, only to give thanks for the Earth, its bounty, the beauty all around us, which we are destroying in our unprecedented rampage across the planet. I stood at the Forks of the Saskatchewans, at the very spot where Big Bear had his vision, and wept for his fate and all that followed. Yes, I know about the Trail of Tears, in the U.S., but Canada only wreaked a slightly less murderous havoc (conquest by starvation, not by systematic slaughter). Thank you for your post. It took great courage. And know that some of us do hear you. And never stop speaking out, no matter what abuse results. I think Cindy heard you too, since she has removed her diary and apologized for it. Humbly. Because she understood what you were saying. And probably learned something invaluable, that she won't forget from here on in. Consciousness raising is sometimes painful. We shouldn't shrink from it. And this community is exactly the place to do it, because most people here are open-minded and have their hearts in the right place. Peace.

by Barcelona on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:13:45 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Such pain, such suffering--why be Thankful today? (none / 0)

http://www.dailykos.com/...

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who will watch the watchers?)

by The Crusty Bunker on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 07:14:44 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

By Toutatis! (none / 1)

Ils sont fous ces Romains!

Healthy, happy and liberal.

by OAS on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:27:59 AM EST
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Anyone of Indian (none / 0)

heritage understands what it means to come up against "the man".

Iraqis current opposition of "the man" in their homeland are suffering the same sort of treatment the original (and thereby rightful owners) of the Americas faced when they opposed "the man".

"Apparently, the person had been killed by a falling graveyard." Steve Coll The New Yorker

by Superpole on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 08:42:53 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Dear starkravinglunaticradical, STFU (none / 0)

You are on Indian land, Cindy Sheehan. You are on Indian land. All of you. You are on Indian land.

This rant of yours sounds like it was authored by a freeper as satire of liberal political-correctness gone insane.

Oh and BTW... You, SRLR, are on caucasian land.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...

by Dysfraxion on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:17:14 AM EST
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Hmmmm (none / 1)

I used Kennewick Man as an icon in a considerable amount of semiotically based artwork representing misunderstanding between Native Americans and later immigrants. There was quite an argument going on between the Umatilla and the scientific community over whether enough bone could be removed from the Kennewick remains to test for DNA showing their genetic origins and at the time I came down firmly on the side of scientists, mainly because (rightly or wrongly) my curiosity about ancient migration patterns overcame my sense of political correctness.
Recently I half heard on the BBC that preliminary results had been accomplished, and looked for confirmation through the Seattle Times.
As of this summer, they had been unable to gather enough DNA to successfully test. What tests they had accomplished were chemical and physical analyses which showed what the gentleman in question ate and how he lived, not who he was.  Therefore your STFU argument, illustrated by an old 1999 link to the Beeb, is specious. A forensic reconstruction is not solid evidence of origin, and until something a little more concrete than an educated guess comes along, Kennewick Man will just be an unknown quantity.

by northsylvania on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:36:02 AM EST
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We're all on human land (n/t) (none / 1)

by jrooth on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:23:50 AM EST
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Geez, some of you people are so nasty... (none / 0)

...and I mean some of the commenters, not the diarist.  It was only curiosity that brought me back after the "pie" debacle, but if this is what I've been missing, then good riddance.

by OrdinaryVanity on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 09:48:36 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

The Propriety of Misery (none / 0)

This Turkey War has provoked me.

So I up and wrote a diary about it. :)

Everyone has a right to the orgasm of their choice. :)

by cskendrick on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:00:55 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Has anyone seen... (none / 0)

...David Mamet's play Oleana?

Don't know why that came to mind right now...

Thy hand, great Anarch! lets the curtain fall: And universal Darkness buries All.

by Dunciad on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 10:30:07 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Your people are not the first people (none / 1)

to be persecuted nor will they be the last. I have no desire to list the wrongs that have been done to my people because of religion and becaue of this male dominated world. Instead I try to educate those around me at the appropriate times. If leading by example is good enough for Ghandi, it's good enough for me.

The public needs to take these ridiculous stories about Thanksgiving. Schools need to educate students about the true history behind the holiday. One shouldn't have to wait to get a college education in order to find a professor who knows the true tale.

Having said all that, please delete this diary. Our community needs to fully support Cindy in her hours of need. She doesn't deserve anything less.  

Your diary would have been great if you had simply written about Thanksgiving and well timed as well. IMO, you aren't seeing the forest through the trees. We're all on the same team, aren't we?

Now I laugh and make a fortune off the same ones that I torture and a world says, "Kiss me, son of god." ~ They Might Be Giants

by misscee on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:29:04 AM EST
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Nothing like calling someone out in a diary title. (none / 0)

Because I'm sure it would have been totally impossible to convey these thoughts to Cindy Sheehan in an email.  I doubt she would have even thought of apologizing had this communication been done in a more private venue.  The only solution was a public shaming.

Too bad they don't burn people at the stake anymore, eh?

I'm so metal I have the unlisted Number of the Beast.

by MjrMjr on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:32:33 AM EST
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that's my biggest issue with this whole thing (none / 0)

kudos!

No act of peace is ever wasted. peacepositive always.

by peacepositivemike on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:41:50 PM EST
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Cindy you are one of my relations... (none / 0)

Thank you for the history of which most of the choir is most likely already familiar....As an individual with native blood I am saddened by your lack of nuanced response to the brothers and sisters of the world who are your allies.  So much for "all my relations".  If this is how you respond to your allies what do you reserve in your self righteous indignation for others ?  Perhaps you need a more proportional set of behaviors for communicating with those that you claim to support?  It is long passed the time that we can alienate one another. Patience, tolerance, and understanding must come from each of us if we are to overcome the great divide between all of us on this planet at this time.  My first teacher told me to pay attention to the similarities, not the differences.  He said the similarities drew us together while the differences where what divided.  The time is quickly approching when if there is not room for us all there will be room for no one.

by wildwisefree on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:38:15 AM EST
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Happy Thanksgiving all (none / 1)

:)

by Motor City Canuck on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:50:56 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

How many (none / 0)

peoples of the world thru war, injustice, hunger and lack of choice have died while the community here argues over the use of "trail of tears"?

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." Thomas Jefferson

by llih on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:55:34 AM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

A long and complicated discussion (none / 0)

Impossible to sort out the disparate parts of this marathon discussion.  That said, however it got said, this is a valuable bit of history for us all to be reminded of.  A trace of humility, a sense of the complexity of our own history, might have spared us being drawn into this current war, which was premised on our being in some sense a nation annointed by God with the right to lecture and instruct other nations, since we had never erred, never tortured, never...   the list goes on.

It is only by a selective or "children's version" of our own history that we can cling to such a rosy version of our own history that to be judgmental seems our birthright.  We are unlucky enough to have two very poor students as President and Vice President.  Better luck next time.  In the meantime, we will squabble, lose our tempers with each other, blow off steam, and in the process we will call out to and educate each other.  Growth can be an awkward process.

by arthura on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 11:57:50 AM EST
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I understand the reaction (none / 0)

I once heard Elie Wiesel speak and he spent several minutes complaining about the use of the word "holocaust" in today's media. He said he was particularly shocked to hear a football commentator call a blowout a "holocaust."

Usually, I think it's a better strategy to criticize more subtly, but this diary certainly made the front page! And big props to Cindy S for her replies here and on her own diary.

Electronic voting is no vote at all. (-3.38, -6.56)

by agoldnyc on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:00:26 PM EST
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methinks youre wired up and crazy starking (none / 0)

starking raving  lunatic radical,  if i may borrow a phrase.
thats an appropriate epithet for the guy who wrote this diary.

as far as im concerned, as someone whose culture and religion are maligned on a regular and daily basis, who has to put up with such things as koran's being gladly flushed down the toilet and other gravely offensive remarks by a good portion of american society,

let me say that CIndy Sheehan's unwitting reference to "trail of tears" is not a time to start a debate over its usage.

why? beacuse shes on our side,

she is on the side of thse who dont have avoice, and want a voice in america.

i hear people on this site say things about islam that may not be grounded in a tremendous of knowledge, but i always keep in mind that the kossacks are my friends, and we sohuld take it easy on them, while we have real dangers in the form of republican whackhos to deal with.

this is sort of public flogging of cindy's words, i find reprehensible.
im sorry buddy, but you're way out of line to be airing grievances that are a hundred plus years old with a woman who has done more in her time than all of daily  kos could combined to bring attention to the issues that daily kos readers care about.
and for that,

I am offended.

by Taz Man on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:03:14 PM EST
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These grievances (none / 0)

are not hundreds of years old for Native Americans.  They still live with them.  They still deal with the consequences of them every day.

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. -Eleanor Roosevelt

by tryptamine on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:15:23 PM EST
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while (none / 0)

millions and millions of "mexican" americans get jobs, buy houses, rebuild communities.

not the least advantage to "flyover" country is that y'all continue to do that

by le sequoit on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:44:48 PM EST
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Ya' did good! (none / 0)

I have spent these last few days reading comments on dkos and AlterNet belittling Indian opinions and feelings about this day and it hurt this liberal Ojibwa's heart.  Thanks for speaking up!

-Bird

Lord Farkwad was a better leader than Dubya.

by LittleRiceBird on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:06:04 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


mi'igwitch LittleRiceBird (none / 0)

** (virtual tobacco) ;)

"I think the President should look across the country and find the most qualified man, woman, or minority."-Trent Lott

by starkravinglunaticradical on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:14:07 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Noooo! Don't delete! (none / 0)

Don't! I just got off the treadmill reading this and I loved it.  It made me feel right at home arguing back and forth with my family on politics at the Thanksgiving table.  (still missing Texas) Thanks to all of you who have posted naughty and nice.  Yeah we are sensitive bunch and why post about anything if we are not passionate about it.  

Dear Stark,
    Not to worry your cousins the brown nation, the indians from the south, slowly spread their lovely Dora the Explorer brown eyes.  We take back the land like the French in Quebec.  From Padilla to Gonzales to Salma Hayek we treacherously creep into the fears, dreams, desires and hearth slip there through the forests, over the border and threshold.  Take heart. We have been here for generations and will continue to be part of the landscape. Take a peek at the faces of the soldiers who have died you will find us there too.

by TexMex on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:09:04 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Paradox (none / 0)

When someone says "ALL" of their family was wiped out 10 generatiosn ago, I can't help but assume they are padding the numbers a little. I'm not proud of how we treated the indigenous populations of this continent but North Americia is not "Indian" land anymore than Spain is "Moorish" land or Germany is "Visgoth" land. People have been conguered throughout history. The Cherokee were congquered about the same time my forebears were being conguered by the King of England and Russian Tsar. Plenty of my relatives died in those atrocities but I don't act like it entitles me to be Mayor of Vilnius. Move on, Sister. Move on.

"They don't think it be like it is, but it do." Oscar Gamble, 1980.

by Spider Stumbled on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:09:09 PM EST
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SRLR: (none / 0)

The world is well aware of how Ms. Sheehan put her money where her mouth was and stood up for her beliefs.

What concrete action are you going to take to stand up for the wrongs done to your ancestors?

I'm not being glib, here; I truly would like to know how you are going to put action behind your words the way this woman has.

BTW: I hate Thanksgiving almost as much as Christmas. My stomach churns at the memory of being made to dress up like the radical right's ancestors, the Puritans, to recreate the bizarre "First Thanksgiving" ritual in grade school, pretending there was some kind of love-fest between the early European settlers and the Indians (sorry, my memories are from the late 60's so there's no mention in them of Native Americans) knowing that, out on the playground, you can be damned sure no of us wanted to be the Indians.

I'm having sirloin today.

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest" - Diderot

by Cliff Talus on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:24:15 PM EST
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Um (none / 1)

People don't own words.  Or phrases.  "Holocaust" meant something before it was used to describe the extermination of Jews (- who, by the way, weren't the only people exterminated; being gay, I can take it personally too).  So did "trail of tears."

"...with liberty and justice for al[most everybody]."

by PeteyP on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:25:11 PM EST
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It's in the proud tradition of Western Culture... (none / 0)

to be ignorant, biased, and at best insensitive toward other cultures. I won't single out Cindy in this case because truth be told 95% of people do it everyday without even thinking about it.

Whether it's a racial or ethnic slur. A certain level of homophobia, A biased against certain religions, most of all at the moment Islam. Or even against specific nations, France or Pakistan for example.

Here's a scenario to think about, a Caucasian Christian male that's 24 years old and relatively wealthy becomes a suicide bomber, most people won't suspect him anyway because he's white, well dressed and looks handsome, but the Pakistani on his way home from work on the train everybody suspects is up to something. After the event everybody says there was this Pakistani guy and the media assumes it was him, but days later forensics show who the real bomber was. After wards everyone thinks it was just some nut case and not a terrorist. Sound like America? Sound like anywhere in the Western world right now?

I was campaigning for Kerry last November and the Libertarian who was also there handing out campaign literature called Muslim's in America "invaders". It just sadly I might add become a forgone conclusion that at worst we fear and criticize other cultures, even destroy them out of that fear and at best by and large forget, ignore or are insensitive to other cultures. Which I honestly think is a darn shame since cultural diversity gives any country a lot of strengths that a culturally homogeneous nation would never achieve.

by Donkey Rising on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:42:44 PM EST
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And no no-other cultures (none / 0)

contain ignorance or bias towards other cultures, right? I must have missed the world history that you have been reading-the one where all non-'Western' cultures throughout history have been perfectly tolerant and accepting.

In arrogance the wicked persecute the poor- let them be caught in the schemes they have devised. Psalm 10:2

by chicagochristianleft on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:49:10 PM EST
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A moving piece (none / 1)

I apologize for any time I have used "Trail of Tears" in the past, out of the Indian context. I won't do so in the future.

I'm positive Cindy did not meant to offend you. Even people as informed as Kossacks are sometimes oblivious to cultural sensibilities if it's not their own culture.

It is way past the time we in America start teaching the real story behind colonization. Just like slavery, it is not a pretty side of our heritage and shows a side of us we don't like to confront. But just like slavery, healing for the victims can only start when we - the heirs of the oppressors - let the truths of the past be known.

I think we have just heard the sound of one hand clapping... And it lost by 403 x 3 on the House.

by lawnorder on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:44:47 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Causing trouble again stark ? (none / 0)

That is one of the reasons I love your writtings!

I think we have just heard the sound of one hand clapping... And it lost by 403 x 3 on the House.

by lawnorder on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:46:35 PM EST
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Actually, I have (none / 0)

described it elsewhere as "having unleashed a shit storm"--and no, the filthy rotten abusive comments in response are not exactly rolling off a duck's back here, but....what the hell, been through worse and I suspect my ol friend Vine DeLoria might be getting a chuckle or two outta this as he passes to the other side....as he said

In the Indian community there has always been the acknowledgement that living cannot be postponed. Particularly among the Sioux Indians, anything that has an identity calls men and societies to it. "It is a good day to die," Crazy Horse used to call as he rode out into battle. People accepted his challenge and followed him because he called into question their highest memories of themselves. If there is a sense, then, in which a person can have a vocation, it is to ride into one's community with a challenge to its presuppositions, presuppositions which one cherishes and from which one's identity is received.
    If vocation is to exist in today's world it must certainly involve a heady willingness to struggle for both long and short term goals and at times simply for the joy of getting one's nose bloodied while blackening the other guy's eye. I would conclude that vocation has nothing to do with jobs, divine callings, political platforms, or wisdom and knowledge of the world. It is the solitary acknowledgement that the question of man's life and identity is to let the bastards know you've been there and that it is always a good day to die. We are therefore able to live.

Deloria, Vine Jr. "It is a good day to die" (in FOR THIS LAND, 84 -91)

Can you bring me some icepacks if you happen to be driving into town today? lol.

"I think the President should look across the country and find the most qualified man, woman, or minority."-Trent Lott

by starkravinglunaticradical on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:09:41 PM EST
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I just spent (none / 1)

10 minutes writing what I think about your attack on Cindy, and then deleted it.

Suffice to say, I will never be reading another one of your diaries.  Shame on you.

No American left behind - in civil rights, in health care, in the economy.

by JLFinch on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:48:25 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


I've deleted two of my own posts too (none / 1)

And I'm about to log off this site for the long weekend. Today is about gratitude, not anger.

I'm grateful for you, JLFinch.

No act of peace is ever wasted. peacepositive always.

by peacepositivemike on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:35:07 PM EST
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this diary is just (none / 1)

plain mean and counterproductive.  I hate it.

No American left behind - in civil rights, in health care, in the economy.

by JLFinch on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:55:25 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

How 'bout some slack? (none / 1)

I am sure Cindy meant no harm or offense. There may have been a more gentle way to speak directly to Cindy and still have raised awareness.

That said, every single thing Stark posted about the Native Americans should be repeated every Thanksgiving until it becomes a holiday not simply of gratitude for our "blessings" (traditionally, the  U.S.'s ability to screw others out of life and birthright and enjoying the spoils), but a holiday of atonement.

Any Native American who takes the time to rant and educate about the graves we dance on every time we celebrate Thanksgiving has a welcome and a thank you from me.

I think both Cindy and Stark could cut each other some slack, and we could cut them both some also.

by rhetoricuss on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:57:08 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

WHEN is this damn diary (none / 1)

going to go away, for chrissakes.  I'm sick of it.

No American left behind - in civil rights, in health care, in the economy.

by JLFinch on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 12:59:00 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

I didn't get very far into the comments (none / 1)

to learn that a lot of people disagree with beating Cindy over the head for using a term in ignorance. The prevailing attitude is that it was over the top and that perhaps Cindy should've been educated on what the phrase "trail of tears" means to Native Americans.

How many people really think that 400+ people would've had a lively conversation over a 3 line diary correcting Cindy?

I don't want to impose meaning on srlr's diary but maybe the intent was to inform us in rather strong terms what the real issue is. A bland diary on Indian rights wouldn't have gotten very far in that respect and probably would've lasted 2 hours before scrolling into the ether.

Going after a dKos hero was a good way to get the reader/commenters. Here at dKos when you're not one of the biggies then your choices are limited in terms of getting exposure for your cause.

-4.25, -6.87: Someday, after the forest fire of the Right has died we'll say "Whew, I'm happy that's over."

by CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


So if you could go back in time (none / 0)

and change this diary to the "bland" kind you mentioned, would you?"  I would.  If I read you  correctly, you're justifying the hijacking of someone's good name and expression of indignation at an apparently unknowing and unintended slight for the purpose of getting more publicity for one's cause.

Fuck. That.

I don't care what the cause is, I hate that kind of cynical harming of people to promote one's cause.  (I'm agnostic as to whether that's what SRLR was actually doing, but that's what I read "Going after a dKos hero was a good way to get the reader/commenters. Here at dKos when you're not one of the biggies then your choices are limited in terms of getting exposure for your cause." as justifying.

Hopefully Cindy sticks around here.  Personally, this sort of thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth and even given the added exposure to the poster's views I think it is a negative thing on balance.  I hate bringing glee to the Limbaughs and LGFs of the world, which is what we've done; I hate it all the more if it's done cynically.

(For fans of HBO's Rome, reference Servilia's cynically causing Niobe's death as a means of promoting her cause of killing Caeser.  Given time, I'm sure I could come up with a better classical example.)

"If you [just] wanted to reduce ignorance, you could ... abort every Republican baby in this country, and your ignorance rate would go down."

by Major Danby on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:33:39 PM EST
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Liberals are all for the 'common good' (none / 0)

except when it comes to individual grievances ;)

'All great change in America begins at the dinner table.' Reagan

by PhillyGal on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:17:58 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

Even though... (none / 0)

there are more than likely no slaves that are alive any more, The blacks or African Americans keep us reminded that this happened.  Just so are you keeping us reminded.  If we are kept reminded of these things than hopefully they will never be repeated.  I would hope that I never invite my friends over for dinner and then systematically kill them.  I get the impression that this is what the Bush administration is doing with Iraq.  We invite them to join in democracy and then systematically have them killed for their oil and lands.  Maybe, as a country we never learn.

by libbie on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 01:57:14 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

What words are we allowed to say? (none / 1)

And who owns which words?  Can we have a list?

by KevinA on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:07:04 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]


Grow up. (1.00 / 2)

It's not about which words we're "allowed to say," or who "owns" these phrases etc.  It's about whether or not liberal-minded people who respect one another and care about one another's sensitivities should throw these phrases around.  Obviously, there are countless words that fall into this cateogry, and I'm sure you're aware of a bunch of them.  JUST BECAUSE A WORD OR PHRASE IS IN COMMON USAGE DOES NOT MAKE IT OKAY TO USE.  I'm not saying that I agree 100% with stark, I'm just saying we should be respectful of her opinion (expecially on a day of mourning such as this), and think about the way we throw such words around.

by Quilty on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:22:59 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]


"Grow up" (4.00 / 2)

It's not about which words we're "allowed to say," or who "owns" these phrases etc.

Oh, but it most certainly is.  Stark's hateful screed was precipitated by three words in Ms. Sheehan's diary.  And you don't think it's about who "owns" phrases?  Did you miss this sentence

This term "Trail of Tears" is not "up for grabs" as a generic metaphor for suffering. It isn't. It is ours.

in the original hate-filled rant?

whether or not liberal-minded people who respect one another and care about one another's sensitivities should throw these phrases around

How about Stark caring enough about Cindy Sheehan's sensitivities to not assault her in such a manner?

I'm just saying we should be respectful of her opinion

I can't agree that a person who showed such a massive lack of respect in her posting deserves respect in return.

by KevinA on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:01:37 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Team names (none / 0)

I recommended this diary because I think, on a day like this, everyone needs to understand where it came from.

I take issue with one thing, and that's how the poster brought up the sports team names.  I am sensitive to your point of view, especially in light of history, but it seems like team names are universally demeaning in a lot of ways.  (obvious examples being the Yankees, "Fighting" Irish, and the 49er's.)  In the case of a name like the "Sooners," I'd go so far as to say they're self-deprecating to Whites, and rightfully so.

In the case of the Redskins, I completely understand.  Racial slurs shouldn't be used in that way.  Whites would riot if a team were named the "Honkies."

by Shiva on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:25:02 PM EST
[ Reply to This | ]

I have the blood of oppressors (none / 0)

Daily Kos: I have the blood of oppressors in my veins

 And I have the blood of the oppressed.

I have Native American blood. The keyword here is American. My great-gran-gran was an Indian in South America, also part of the continent, but not considered "America".

But not all on my bloodline were victims. My Spanish ancestors exterminated a sizable portion of the South American natives to make way for the Spanish Empire. And one of the Spanish conquerors descendants married and had kids with a native. Hence me.

I am living, breathing proof that opposite sides can get together. That despite of generations of "bad blood" between two cultures, it's descendants can get along well with each other. Love each other. Build a new culture together. That we don't have to be bound by the mistakes of our past.

I think we have just heard the sound of one hand clapping... And it lost by 403 x 3 on the House.

by lawnorder on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:36:39 PM EST
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Goddamit! Stop this shit!!! (none / 1)

Cindy Sheehan used a term, unintentionally, that struck a nerve - a raw exposed nerve, a nerve that is certainly understandable given the horrific history of the Trail of Tears. That person writes a diary that was intended to sting Cindy like Cindy's words stung her (understandable, but a bit cruel). And all hell breaks loose.  It's like a civil war has broken out pitting diariasts I admire against other diariasts I admire.

Get a grip!  The Trail of Tears, like the Holocaust, like lynchings, and like so many other hideous attrocities that result when people in power feel the need to resort to cruelty to crush their enemies.

Can we all agree Cindy would never have used that term if she knew how much hurt it would rain on people who have suffered much already? Can we all agree that starkravinglunticradical would have written a less judgemental diary if she had waited 12 more hours?  Haven't we ALL written posts or diaries that looked unbelievaly stupid the next day?  I have!!!

The point is, I'm glad stark wrote about her pain about the Trail of Tears. We need to frequently be reminded of the breathtakingly cruel treatment American Indians received by those in power.  However, people who have raw nerves should realize that the average schmuck like me has a lot of trouble knowing what phrases are safe to use and which ones cause incredable hurt to people who have suffered in the past.  Please, in the future, give us the benefit of the doubt.

But even more important, as humans we must always be aware that the desire to treat those we hate with cruelty and torture is buried deep inside most of us and we must conciously fight those tendencies, AND NOT LET OUR LEADERS FRIGHTEN US INTO IT.  We currently have an Administration that sees nothing wrong with torturing our enemies. Let's focus our anger at them on our real enemies on this Thanksgiving Day, 2005.

by Trakker on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 02:56:12 PM EST
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I recomend... (none / 0)

because as a Puertorrican I uderstand the deep irony of the "New World". That my very existence was created by exterminating the Arawac Natives, transplanting millions of Africans to the Caribean and dismising the dreams of independence for the nacent cultures of the "New World."

These ironies of history where not lost on the people(s) of the Carribean how natives, slaves and creoles where pitted against each other by their European masters. Neither do the people in Europe shrug of their share in this history. Only in the U.S. does willful ignorance rein. And if you don't think it so I'll give you these words for you to ponder on:

Buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta:
There was a buffalo soldier in the heart of america,
Stolen from africa, brought to america,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival.

I mean it, when I analyze the stench -
To me it makes a lot of sense:
How the dreadlock rasta was the buffalo soldier,
And he was taken from africa, brought to america,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival.

Said he was a buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta -
Buffalo soldier in the heart of america.

If you know your history,
Then you would know where you coming from,
Then you wouldn't have to ask me,
Who the 'eck do I think I am.

I'm just a buffalo soldier in the heart of america,
Stolen from africa, brought to america,
Said he was fighting on arrival, fighting for survival;
Said he was a buffalo soldier win the war for america.

Dreadie, woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!
Woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!
Buffalo soldier troddin' through the land, wo-ho-ooh!
Said he wanna ran, then you wanna hand,
Troddin' through the land, yea-hea, yea-ea.

Said he was a buffalo soldier win the war for america;
Buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival;
Driven from the mainland to the heart of the caribbean.

Singing, woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!
Woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!

Troddin' through san juan in the arms of america;
Troddin' through jamaica, a buffalo soldier# -
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival:
Buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta.

Woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!
Woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy! fadeout

Bob Marley; Buffalo Soldier

"I aim to misbehave." Capt. Malcom Reinolds

by Ralfast on Thu Nov 24, 2005 at 03:38:04 PM EST
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