Promise Creepers Cult

Actually, considering the difference in numbers and that the event
was a PK event, (not a NOW event) that was being protested, I thought
that the coverage of the dissenters was given lots of time, at least in
our local media. The National Public Radio coverage was interesting,
not only covering dissenters, but an interview with a homosexual man who
went to Promise Keepers with his brother, and the response he got from
his liberal friends.

--Melanie

Not since England in the 1500's, thanks to the printing press. God's
word is in the Bible. Anyone can read it. Also, if you are dedicated,
you can even learn the original language and read it. I certainly don't
put what any religious leader says over the content.

I disagree...we have heard Patricia Ireland, et al. ad naseum here.
> >
> >We have NOW leaders saying that PK is bad for women, while PK wives
> >only insist that it's good for them. We see images of topless
> >lesbians, another extreme image that gets airplay but doesn't make
> >people think. And no voices are heard explaining why PK is a movement
> >that will eventually grow to demand submission from everyone who
> >isn't a white-male Christian of their flavor - whether through
> >governmental control or group action.

Oh brother...

> >
> >Fact is, PK is as political as the song sung during the rally's climax
> >- "I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb." We on the outside all know that
> >this song (see lyrics at http://www.elpasoanvil.org/hanvil9704.htm)
> >has obvious political overtones and is a call to mass action, but like
> >a PK rally, the call to political action is not overt, but implied.
> >And I last heard this song being sung by Operation Rescue blockaders
> >on the steps of a women's health center, so obviously it's a favorite
> >among those who think any action, even illegal action, is just fine to
> >advance their cause.

The song was probably sung by Operation Rescue because it is a religious
song. They also sang Amazing Grace. So, now I guess Joan Baez is a
radical religious right "freak" because Operation Rescue sings Amazing
Grace. Uh huh... Is all your thinking this illogical?

> >
> >PK is not a political movement - it is a cultural movement. It will
> >become political in due course, or as you suggest, other groups will
> >come forward to do the political work. As an analogy, consider PK the
> >act of changing out the hardware, while politics is the software.
> >Current hardware is not capable of running Christian-based theocratic
> >fascism. Should PK pull off the reforming of American culture that
> >they seek - and I think that they, aided by the slow cultural changes
> >of the past two decades, are well along in this process - they may
> >well replace the hardware of American culture with a system that will
> >support a fascist regime.
> >
> >As for the cultic thought-reform methods being used, the coercive
> >non-consensual nature of what actually happens at these rallies may be
> >a weak point at which criticism could be directed. Unfortunately
> >though, I'm finding that these methods are acceptable and woven into
> >the practices of a very large number of churches, and in most forms
> >aren't even noticed by the general public. I'm seeing repetition,
> >fatigue, misdirection and deception - to name just a few examples -
> >used on the streets in front of women's health clinics, to control
> >anti-abortion blockaders, in plain view of everyone, and few object on
> >those grounds or even notice. These actions are seen as political
> >actions, acts of speech or religious expression that should somehow be
> >"protected," rather than the exercise and practice of group control by
> >leaders through coercive means that they actually are, and attempts to
> >direct that control against those that dare disagree by purchasing a
> >legal service.

Actually, I have been to a few of the events you mention. Whether or
not anyone was "sleep" deprived was their own choice, most of the time.
I got to bed plenty early enough. Apparently you equate any sort of
worship of God to be "brain-washing" no matter how voluntary the
decision is. I disagree.
> >
> >I fear that this kind of group action will be extended to other
> >aspects of our culture, and freedoms that people take for granted.
> >I suspect, and the Washington Post survey also suggests, that PK may
> >well be attracting corporate executives and business owners. What
> >would happen if discrimination against gays or women became overt
> >practice at thousands of workplaces, in open defiance of the law?
> >Governmental enforcement would be irrelevant, in the same way that,
> >for instance, abortion becomes increasingly unavailable despite its
> >legality or laws protecting access as the result of group action
> >making the service of abortion too costly to provide.

Well...the abortion access part breaks my heart! NOT. What if men
starting supporting the women they impregate and they don't want to
choose abortion quite so often because they feel supported? Or doesn't
that fit into your view of "choice."
> >
> >We freethinkers and allies face what I think is a grave threat, and I
> >see few solutions.

You are no more freethinking than anyone else. Being anti-God makes you
a slave to your views equally with anyone else. God sure gave me the
capacity to think freely.

> >
> >Secularism doesn't make for pretty pictures for the evening news. If
> >there ever were pretty pictures, perhaps they come from the America of
> >my childhood. Democracy, pluralism, religious diversity, and the idea
> >that people were free and had rights despite what they might think,
> >were values that we shared in the face of the Communist totalitarians.
> >Our shared icons, in the form of the U.S. flag, Declaration of
> >Independence, Bill of Rights, and the monuments to our past leaders in
> >Washington, were visible symbols of those values. And I learned these
> >values in 8 years of Catholic primary school!

Then, obviously, being religious did not take away from those values.

> >
> >Today, what do we have? A movement that insists that those leaders,
> >along with some nebulous group dubbed the "Founding Fathers," were
> >Christians and intended the United States to be a Christian nation -
> >rewriting history to suit their needs, or more accurately, calm their
> >fears by providing a feeling of historical inevitability. Over two
> >hundred years of American secularism is thrown out the window, and the
> >Supreme Court is seen as the enemy, as its actions seldom support the
> >theocratic view. They produce logos that place our flag behind a
> >Christian cross, or replace the flag's stars with a cross, to drive
> >home the new order: "God's law" displaces man's law.
> >

Now you are taking a view of the minority and transposing it onto
everyone at PK. Yes, we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles,
though one can find similar principles in other faiths. It is just as
foolish to suggest that it had no impact on American culture as to say
that all shared the same beliefs amongst the founding fathers.

> >When they come to Washington, it is to establish their church in a
> >place ringed with monuments to people they are painting as Christian
> >saints. It is to take that space, those symbols, for themselves,
> >excluding all others if not targeting them for intensive conversion.
> >During the climactic last hour of the rally, my partner and I - she an
> >unrepentant pagan bisexual - were surrounded by a group on our Mall,
> >led by a pastor, who prayed (preyed) over without our consent. They
> >unsuccessfully attempted to join hands and surround us on all sides so
> >as to not let us leave, but they were unable to complete their circle
> >in the crowd. She openly shared with them her beliefs and lifestyle,
> >all we received in return was to be treated not as people with
> >differing viewpoints but as objects to be converted, by force if
> >necessary - squarely in the middle of the Mall!

I think you are paranoid.
> >
> >I also believe that we're being done in by technological advances,
> >mainly that of cheap global bandwidth. Today we listen to the radio
> >news, and the stories we hear are of fatal traffic accidents on the
> >other side of the planet that can fit in a few seconds; discussion of
> >real issues gets ghettoized on NPR, but only if you're lucky. Three
> >hundred channels are delivered to our living rooms, and in the chaos,
> >to get above the noise, editors are forced to deliver pretty pictures
> >and not talking heads. We end up with pretty pictures of people being
> >emotional for all the wrong reasons in the middle of a large beautiful
> >choreographed TV show interspersed with a few brief seconds of a
> >talking head saying that they don't like it because <insert group
> >here> might be affected eventually. This won't work.
> >
> >Meanwhile, technology favors the religious. They can hold a huge
> >event with attendees a mile away from the stage, but each individual
> >there can see captioned video of every moment on Jumbotron
> >screens. Bill McCartney boasts that they were managed to obtain the
> >Jumbotrons despite the fact that they were supposed to go to a Rolling
> >Stones concert. Why is this important, and why is it likely that the
> >PK organization paid a massive premium for the units? Because the
> >Jumbotron is key to asserting control over each individual in the mass
> >event. People must see the captions to sing along, they must see the
> >emotional outpouring and the demonstrations of cracking under and
> >submitting happening on the stage, if they are to fully participate -
> >loudspeakers are not sufficient to achieve the emotional impact
> >necessary for conversion and indoctrination.

Maybe it is less sinister...not all those people fit in one building and
people like to be able to see. So what is your alternative...ban the
PK, don't let them assemble freely...so much for the Bill of Rights.
Your free to dissent, currently and hold your meetings openly, rent
Jumbotrons, if you so choose.

> >
> >Technology also enables milleu control, so that a person could live
> >their entire life viewing many channels of sanitized Christian media.
> >Just go to the Promise Keepers web site, and you'll see advertised
> >there the "Sky Angel" DBS TV and radio system which is billed as
> >carrying a future all-PK TV channel. The service is packaged in such
> >a way as to exclude secular television channels from their basic
> >service.
> >
That is their choice. What if someone just doesn't like watching
"violent" shows for entertainment. Will you equally condemn them.
People should be able to watch whatever they choose, sanitized or not.

> >Religion as practiced by PK will produce a single minority bloc which
> >will, if unopposed by sophisticated means, become the root of a
> >dominant political force in this country. The left hasn't even
> >figured out what's going on. We have Geraldine Ferraro saying that
> >she "doesn't understand these guys" on CNN, and we have our allegedly
> >Democratic President endorsing the PK's "family values." The left as
> >we know it is toast, so don't expect political maneuvering as we've
> >known it to moderate the PK influence.
> >
> >Wearing atheist jewelry and complaining about a few obscure lumps of
> >rock in a San Francisco park isn't opposition to the encroaching
> >Christian theocracy; whimpering about tax exemptions for churches
> >doesn't cut it either. A massive movement to reaffirm this country's
> >commitment to pluralism and freedom, combined with clear messages with
> >emotional content defining and reintroducing America to its
> >traditional basic values, might make some difference. But I have
> >plenty of reason to be pessimistic.

Values which you were taught in a parochial school.
> >
> >Germany teaches its children not to blindly obey; why haven't we?
> >--
> >------------- Copyright (c) 1997 All Rights Reserved. --------------
> >----- "I am Promise Keeper of Borg. Prepare to be assimilated." -----
> >Mike Doughney ---- mi...@mtd.com ---- http://mtd.com ---- PP-ASEL

Excuse me, but the whole message of Operation Rescue was not to blindly
obey the authorities. Just because you don't agree with the philosophy
behind it doesn't make it blind obedience. Obviously, there is a place
for respect and obedience or we'd have no society at all. You are more
than a little paranoid here.

--Melanie

I'm very distressed that there are no coherent dissenting voices

We have NOW leaders saying that PK is bad for women, while PK wives

Fact is, PK is as political as the song sung during the rally's climax

PK is not a political movement - it is a cultural movement. It will

I fear that this kind of group action will be extended to other

We freethinkers and allies face what I think is a grave threat, and I
see few solutions.

Secularism doesn't make for pretty pictures for the evening news. If

Today, what do we have? A movement that insists that those leaders,

When they come to Washington, it is to establish their church in a

I also believe that we're being done in by technological advances,

Technology also enables milleu control, so that a person could live

Religion as practiced by PK will produce a single minority bloc which

Germany teaches its children not to blindly obey; why haven't we?

There were plenty of dissenting voices protesting outside the rally.

>The Promise Keepers event this past weekend may well have been the

:I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
:of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
:great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
:strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
:for their wives and children.
:Perry Murtz

Okay, Perry, you want to know what we're afraid of? Try this: Pat
Robertson, a fervent supporter of Promise Keepers and its
crypto-fascist political agenda, says that atheists deserve the death
penalty, perferrably by stoning. Not to mention that he would, if in
power, forbid anyone to hold public office that didn't pass a
fundamentalist litmus test.

And this: George Herbert Walker Bush, then President of the United
States (and golden-haired boy of the Religious Right) opined that he
didn't believe atheists could be proper citizens of the US, nor did he
think all the rights and protections of the Constitution applied to us.

Apart from those two glaringly concrete examples of what the Religious
Right has in store for atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, skeptics (not
to mention Muslims, Buddhists, Traditional Native Americans,
practitioners of Santeria, etc., etc., etc.) we are afraid of living in
a country where superstition rules and rational thought is driven
underground. Like Iran is today, or Europe during the Dark Ages.

We are afraid of the Thought Police, the Soul Police, the Cops for
Christ, the Galilee Gestapo, and all other existing or pre-emergent
groups who would gleefully take away our freedoms and our citizenship
merely because we have a different spiritual orientation than that of
the fundies. If you think they wouldn't do it, then you haven't done
your homework. Scarcely a week goes by without *somebody* from that
camp spelling out how they're gonna make life miserable for the rest of
us once America is "restored to God." <Shudder>

I'd say that was enough to scare anybody. Certianly enough to scare
anybody who believes (or purports to believe) in the principles upon
which this country was *actually* founded - freedom of/from religion,
separation of Church and State, and the right of each of us to live our
lives as we see fit.

Brenda

Number 34 on The A.A. List, and proud of it!
"To sum up: 1. The cosmos is a gigantic fly-wheel making 10,000
revolutions a minute. 2. Man is a sick fly taking a dizzy ride on it. 3.
Religion is the theory that the wheel was designed and set spinning to
give him the ride." H. L. Mencken
************************************************************************
I just *work* for the University of Arizona. (1997 NCAA BASKETBALL
CHAMPIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) My opinions are my own.
************************************************************************

First off, these "true American values" that you speak of
as being "strong families, blacks & whites living together
in harmony", these things can not stand "once again" as
they haven't fully ever stood before.

If it was simply nothing more than a christian group
attempting to strengthen the familial bonds, then I doubt
anyone would raise an eyebrow.

But, look at what it's creating as a side product: a large
body of citizens who have been asked to follow the wishes
of the majority, led by McCartney.

This body has tremendous power: the power to sway elections,
the power of financial support, and the power to limit by
way of the previous two, the freedoms of others.

What is frightening is not that they want to create an
alternative to the world that is pleasing to their moral
code, but that they would be able to destroy things that
they may consider to be contrary to their code.

Example:

If the Promise Keepers are upset that there are subjects
such as sexuality, non-christian religions, or anything
that does not fall within their ideas of how the world
should be on a medium such as television, they could
create an alternate channel or network that conforms with
their ideals, and I doubt if anyone with a decent idea
of freedom would mind. More power to them, in fact!

However, if the Promise Keepers then tried to eliminate
the other channels or networks which allow such subjects,
that is a restriction of freedom. THAT is what is being
feared.

--
$T.&REUX,KSC --><-- O G Y R N E T W O R K www.prairienet.org/~saint
SacraMenstrual Church of the SubGenius Local 451 Outreach Ministry
LOGIC OF SLACK : PURE HATRED IS THE PUREST FORM OF LOVE
"And the strong survive for the love of life..." - s w a n s

Gee. That sounds just like the propaganda Hitler used. God, country,
and family. In fact, it's a line used by despots and dictators
throughout history.

Does THAT answer your question?

--
Ray Fischer
r...@netcom.com

Rev. Chuck,

I'm sorry to point out something, but Christianity is far
from being in atrophy a/o a dying phase.

Christianity will still be around years from now. Not many
religions pass the 2000 year mark.

The main reason why it will still be around is that it is
an "open date" apocalyptic religion. There is the promise
of rapture "very soon", but not claiming a given date.
Therefore, until the rapture happens, which may be never,
Christianity will continue to exist.

I myself would blame the reactionary plutocrats who control the media,
thereby miscasting any dissenting voices as "extremists." For example,
the sad excuse for a newspaper with which my city is saddled wrote a
glowing endorsement of the Promise Keepers on its op-ed page, and then
put right alongside it a blurb about some "Lesbian Avengers" who took
off their tops to protest their march on Washington. In a part of the
USA where people still write letters to the editor in crayon, this is
tantamount to suggesting that only a topless bulldyke could oppose the
Promise Keepers: a fact that the shitstains who edit our newspaper know
full well. They may have had a sense of ethics back in journalism
school, but they've long since peddled it to Al Neuharth and his bean
counters.

- Raoul D. Xemblinosky III -=-=-=-=-=-=- -- . --- .-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
a.f.k-m.n "Meow meow Henrietta Pussycat meow meow
alt.flame meow The Presidents of the United States
alt.evil of America meow Kitty?" -- Matt Bruce
- http://super.zippo.com/~shpxurnq -=-=- hfw sux -=-=-=- mhm 15x12 -=

>Perry Murtz

The Abomination in the eyes of God of the Promise Keepers is
the silent agenda: Women *in their place* and *the Christian
interpretation* (via McCartney) of what is valid and valuable.

The PK agenda doesn't mention *publicly and openly* the
limitations it would impose on American Society, just that it
wants more *men* to take responsiblilty.
PK is much more dangerous than the Co$ in its final aim
of eliminating nonbiblicly defined freedoms in the US, because
they actually are rapidly gaining the political clout to achieve
this.
A miltant bible-thumping Theocracy in the US would be a
disaster for Americans and others too. They are hardly likely
to limit themselves to just the US. Afterall, they would have
God, as defined by *them* on their side, right?
Theocracies do not foster free thinking, free speech, or
freedom of religion or association.
Look to Iran and remember the witch burnings and the
Dark Times and shudder deeply.

And now please take this thread elsewhere. While interesting
and more than vaguely related it is still off-topic. :)

Best,

Gregg SP4
http://www.cgocable.net/~elrond
--
" I'm sure it's obvious to all who read my stuff, that I have
serious problems when it comes to being able to communicate."
- -RonsAmigo, Official OSA Shill on ARS

$cientology Lawyer Bait: Co$ cures Cancer?:

"Step Four - Cures for Illness You will now find BTs and clusters
being cures for illnesses of the body part. Handle all such BTs and
clusters by blowing them off. 'Cures for Illness' will then cease to read."
--- ררר L.R.Hubbard © ??? ---

Come to Wisconsin where the anything (and I mean anything) the Catholic
Church does will be the top story in all newscasts.

Women in their place in the eyes of God is as a partner. Read all of
it, not just a narrow portion. I have some other concerns regarding
certain aspects of PK, but I do not fault the teachings I've read on
women and the family.

Personally, I think you are attributing the view of a very few
Christians to PK, which is not only unfair, but inaccurate.

I'm not after any theocracy. I'm after individuals controlled by God.
Governments are already subject to him...whether they know it or not.
Read Romans 13.

Most Christians do not hold to Dominion theology and would not support
a Theocracy.

Where is it showing up off-topic (besides talk.abortion)? I can imagine
the Scn. ng. Is that where you are?

--Melanie

Theists control the media? Oh, no! Can it be true?

If the dissenting voices aren't coherent, whose fault is that?

And, did you notice the 'men providing for their wives' bit? That's
fine, if it's what the wife wants, but what if she wants to work
outside the home or not be married at all and totally self-supporting?
You can bet these Neo-Nazis won't allow that kind of thinking for a
minute.

Also, once they got into power, you can bet that any members of the
group from other than the white race will suddenly find themselves
without a voice or any power at all in important decisions. Hopefully,
the non-white members of this cult will come to their senses and
recognize this cult for what it is - a pre-Nazi power grab using
religion in the same way the Communists used atheism to gain power and
control over
non-members lives.

Mickey

One might note that this is not speculation, but has been shown to be
the case. Take a look at the role of the Promise Keepers in Nicaragua
during the Rios Montt years (and the Christian Right in general). One
will find widespread torture, and the virtual decimation of the native
indian population amongst other traditional Christian pastimes.

Rgds
Therion
------ ------
Hell is a city much like Dis, and it's Pandemonium for
"why this is Hell, nor am I out of it".
------
Beautiful Rosewood Furniture From Malaysia To Your Door
at less than half the European or US price.
------ <http://www.geocities.com/~tware/rw/home.html>
(under construction)

I have heard some interesting segments of speeches given at various PK
rallies of the past on Pacifica Radio's Democracy Now program.
Creepy stuff.
Obviously, in a big media oriented rally such as we just had in
Washington, they are going to lay off the more outre and creepy stuff.
I heard a segment of a speech some woman gave at a PK rally. Ugh! Never
have I heard somebody so debase herself! Hand Maiden's Tale
is exactly where this is all heading if all these men newly
recruited into this organization can be indoctrinated by the present
leadership into thinking along the lines of what I have heard from earlier
PK rally speeches.
Hopefully, all these men will no more follow the REAL PK ideas
as expressed by it's leaders, and more than those who went on the million
man march accepted the bizarre ideas of Louis Farakhan.

This is our one hope, and the one bright spot in all of this.
Most of these men were recent recruits and probably won't
accept any of the bizarre ideas percolating in the extreme Xian
movements that many PK leaders are involved with. And the days
of barefoot and pregnant are gone and even the Reconstructionists
can't make the old ways sound reasonable except for a benighted few.

Those who were afraid the milion man march showed that Farakhan
was somehow taking control of Black American men's thinking
were wrong, hopefully this PK march will be another false alarm
for the same reason.

Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!

Brrrrrr..that quote gave me the chills. We have a bozo at work who came
to work wearing a PK shirt the other day. Suprisingly, he is
well-educated (in computers anyway) - maybe I'll play a little game of
"attribute the quote" with him. The truly sad part is that (according to
demographic curves I have seen) religious right fundy-types come mostly
from the lower end of the earning ability graph. These are the people
who will inflict the MAXIMUM damage on their families by "taking
control" and telling mom to stay home. I am speaking of families that
are barely keeping a roof overhead and putting food in the childrens'
mouths. Of course, con artists have always been in the business of
preying on the poorest and least educated among us. People with limited
knowledge ask fewer questions and pose less problems in being led around
by the nose.
On a related subject, does anyone here want to hear about my visit to
the Dallas Org's Celeb.Center yesterday??
Tommy
--
"If you take me for a fool, I'm cyanide."
Greg Lake

And I'd like to know what the perceived problem is of women living in
harmony with and providing for their husbands/partners and children...
and leading the way to a life reflecting compassion and aid and
practical care and nurturing for all who need it, whatever their sex,
creed, colour, disability etc...

Nobody NEEDS some mythical 'god' figure crutch for that!

Pat Winstanley
"http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html"

No, he's probably talking about back when "this once great nation"
afforded no legal rights to women, who were not allowed to own
property or vote. After all, that *is* the end result of the argument
that the male is the responsible, decision-making head of any
household, isn't it?

If the family, rather than the individual, is considered the basic
unit of society, it leads to the conclusion that there should be only
one official response from each family. As the decision-maker and
individual responsible for the family, the male's opinion would be
accepted as the family unit's opinion -- hence, females would no
longer be permitted to vote or own property of their own.

I've seen nothing to indicate PK maintains that women should not be
afforded the right to vote or own property. That conclusion, however,
is the ultimate outcome of the concepts endorsed by the organization.

Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net

In article <343913...@ns.net>, wmn...@ns.net wrote:

>Gregg Hagglund wrote:
>>
>> In article <#LkjqHo0...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>, <us...@msn.com>

No. *You* read all of it. Read what Vineyards preaches and
flee.

It *is* an accurate description of the controlling Hierarchy of PK.

You may not be after a Theocracy, but PK leadership appear to be.
God controls no one. God gave us free choice. We are responsible
for ourselves.
And try reading all the books of the ancient Christians
, including those dropped fro political
reasons of mortal *men*. Try it in the original tongues and not
the highly politicised version written to please the vanity of King
James who was paying for it.

This is true. However not true for the OK leadership. Be wary of
the evil of mortal men cloaked as false prophets and performing
evil acts while concealing themselves in the mantle of YohAllahWah.

Yes, I am posting from alt.religion.scientology where we expose
the Criminal Activities of the Fascist Cult of Greed and Power.

Scientology secretly teaches that God and Christ and all Religious
Knowledge are evil implants in our immortal selves by the Galactic
Overlord Xenu. Many Christians have been tricked into paying
over $100,000.00 for Scientology Processing before learning this
Blasphemy is at the Black Heart of Scientology as taught by the
anti-christian Hubbard.

Posting Christian doctrine to ARS is a waste of bandwidth
and your time. You would achieve more by warning other
Christians of the false and hidden doctrine of the anti-christ
Hubbards Scientology teachings.

Save a Christian today by telling just one about Hubbards
expensive lies about Xenu and denial of God and Christ.

Tell one Christian today and everyday and enjoin them to do the
same. Within a few weeks every Christian, everywhere would know
the evil that Hubbards each and every teaching and uterrance represents.
Save the souls of others by acting now.
Keep unwary Christians from out of the Clutches of the Anti-Christ!
Preach of the Deceptions of the Drunkard and Bigamist Hubbard!
Warn all of the peril of listening to anything originating from the
blasphemous 'Church' of Scientology and its many secret mouthpieces!

Best,
>
>--Melanie

If that's what they freely *choose* to do, then there's no harm that I
can see. If that's what they do because they have no real alternatives
or because they're forced to do it, then I think we can agree that there
is a major problem.

-Paul

<<note that there should be the word 'NOT!' at the end of Spammy's quote>>

Geo, I'm majorly disappointed in you. From XTIANS I expect this kind of
tactic ... not you. Misquoting in an attempt to embarrass? This is not
good.

Much as I hate to give Spammy Slow-Pez the benefit of ANYTHING, I think
you owe him an apology.

>
> Just remember folks. You heard it from Spammy.
>
> Thanks for clearing this up for us.
>
> Geo
> atheist #15

R

Remove any occurrence of the letter 'x' in my address
to send me email.

"Then I will deal with your argumentation. As long as
you just SAY things without giving *PROVE* for them
they are worth NOTHING."
- Bernhard Faber, xtian, on alt.atheism. Ah, irony!

: Gee. That sounds just like the propaganda Hitler used. God, country,

Gee...even the atheist dictators no? <grin>
--
+**************************************************+
+ "I met a Pentium chip +
+ that did not believe +
+ in the existence of Intel (TM)." +
+ +
+**************************************************+

I'm as worried about the Promise Keepers and the Religious Right as
anyone else, but I think that it is important to keep our facts
straight. Rios Montt was in Guatemala, not Nicaragua.

Michael Dresbach

How does it "follow" that there should only be one response - explain the
linkage to me, because I don't see where thats a necessary and sufficient
conclusion given the premise. "Probable" - I could agree to, but I think
you may be jumping to conclusions a bit hastily.

Also, from what I saw on CNN, the PKs (at least publicly) have softened
their "Man Is Boss" paul-isms to where they say the mans job includes
supporting and upholding his wife as an equal partner. Not the same
subservience we heard over the past few years (This was based on a quote
from a soundbite that was clipped from an apparent sermon). The PKs as a
group are so big and amorphous right now that they are very susceptible
to the moderating influence of "old fashioned America Values" like
individualism, equal rights and personal freedom (Pursuit of happiness) -
- the ones the PKs seem to most often overlook. Its what you ignore or
fail to understand that will get you - ask Scientology about their
initial ignorance and continual misunderstanding of the Internet :-)

Aside from all that, IMHO the PK issue is pretty much moot. Its a
tempest in a teapot and will likely fade away within a few years to a
small core of dedicated adherents. Most American evangelical movements
end up that way. Think of it - what happened to all the charismatic
evangelicals from the 1920-30's? Where is the Scourge of the 70's and
80's Jerry Falwell? Not exactly a political powerhouse anymore is he? I
have faith in the American character - that we Americans retain a
fundamental capacity for being easily distracted and hard to lead. Sort
of like lining up cats - the more you get in line the less likely it is
the line will stay put or follow. But thats just my opinion - I could be
wrong

Regards,

A.C.

> I agree, not good..

> Let's look at the other hand though.. Al Gore is a fervorent
> environmentalist, right?

> Here's a tidy quote from a Sierra Club leader..

> "Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and
> environmental."

> Dave Forman, founder of Earth First, and presently a member of the Board
> of Directors for the Sierra Club

> Do you support the Sierra Club?

Personally, I dunno if I support them since I don't know much about them,
but what was wrong with that quote? Got a problem with the truth?

--
A recent search on DejaNews has confirmed that I'm missing more posts than
I'm seeing, especially in alt.atheism. Please CC replies to the address below.
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Beth Wise | Have you ever wondered why
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Amiga 4000/040/25MHz/18MB | <--

This is the clearest (no pun intended) most succinct statment I have seen
yet on the PK that I can agree with. Hmmm - maybe there *is* something
to this Slack and BOB stuff for getting a better mind (or at least a
better grip on slack :-) ...

A.C.

linkage to me, because I dont see where thats a neccesary and sufficient

Also, from what I saw on CNN, the PKs (at leat publicly) have softend

subservience we heard over the past few years (This was a quote from a
soundbite that was clipped from an apparent sermon). The group is so big
and amorphous right now that it is very susceptible to the moderating

rights and personal freedom (Pursuit of happiness) -- the ones the PKs

end up that way. Think of it - what happened to Billy Sunday from the

I've spent a third of my life trying to get a handle on "Slack", and
only this much can I say for certain . Those who _wear_ "slacks" are
the ones who least have it.

I know a little more truth about Foreman than the post let on. What he said
was (and I agree) that if the human population was reduced from its current
6 billion to _maybe_ 600 million at worst, environmental impact would be
negligable or none at all. He never said the human race should be completely
phased out (and neither do I).

Just remember folks. You heard it from Spammy.

I guess the same fervor at an Earth First gathering is okay?

: promise keepers lie about their political agenda and abuse 501(c)(3)
: tax-exemption with blatant lobbying for legislation.

You mean like the Sierra Club?

: promise keepers is a crypto-supremacist white male domination group.

What a laugh! Per third source statistics, the gathering had a 14% mix of
Aferican Americans. The whole US populace has a 13% African American
representation. Do the math..

PJC

I agree, not good..

Hey how about this comment by the sitting, Sec of Interior..

"You can't read the Constitution like a rule book"
-Bruce Babbitt quoted by the Arizona Republic, July 8, 1987

: Apart from those two glaringly concrete examples of what the Religious
: Right has in store for atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, skeptics (not
: to mention Muslims, Buddhists, Traditional Native Americans,
: practitioners of Santeria, etc., etc., etc.) we are afraid of living in
: a country where superstition rules and rational thought is driven
: underground. Like Iran is today, or Europe during the Dark Ages.

Superstitions, or the creation there of?

Hey I have one for you..

"[W]e have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic
statements, and make little mention of any doubts we may have. Each of us
has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being
honest."

-Stephen Schneider, proponent of the theory that CFCs are depleting the
ozone

: We are afraid of the Thought Police, the Soul Police, the Cops for
: Christ, the Galilee Gestapo, and all other existing or pre-emergent
: groups who would gleefully take away our freedoms and our citizenship
: merely because we have a different spiritual orientation than that of
: the fundies. If you think they wouldn't do it, then you haven't done
: your homework. Scarcely a week goes by without *somebody* from that
: camp spelling out how they're gonna make life miserable for the rest of
: us once America is "restored to God." <Shudder>

Hah!

* Deep Ecology as a Religion

"If we seek only personal redemption we could become solitary ecological
saints among the masses of those we might classify as 'sinners' who
continue to pollute."

Bill Devall & George Sessions, Deep Ecology: Living As If Nature Mattered
Layton, UT: Gibbs Smith, 1987), p 14

"More science and more technology are not goint to get us out of the
present ecological crises untill we find a new religion, or rethink our
old one."

Lynn White, Jr. "The Historical Roots of Our Ecological Crisis," Science,
(Mar. 10 1967), p 1206

: I'd say that was enough to scare anybody. Certianly enough to scare
: anybody who believes (or purports to believe) in the principles upon
: which this country was *actually* founded - freedom of/from religion,
: separation of Church and State, and the right of each of us to live our
: lives as we see fit.

Trouble is, you could care less if your life as you see fit, affects
anyone else.

PJC

Since you have brought the all too common USENET<>NAZI comparison into
view, we should also mention the following.

In the 1930s the ecologists "Green Revolution" reached full flower in
Germany...In the political sphere, ecologists lobbied successfully, for
antivivisection laws,..implementation of organic farming,..and the
redistribution of large land holdings to the German peasants (Back-to-
the-Land movement)...These laws became the policies of a political party
that incorporated a major portion of the ecologists political agenda. This
party also believed in the "Blood and Soil" ethic, and was known as the
National Socialist Party. Its leader was Adolf Hitler.

Oophs.. All those nice "Green Ideals" are admired and often demanded by
liberals.

>
>The Christian Reconstructionists function as a fundamentalist Christian
>think-tank. Over the last, oh, 20 years, ideas have percolated out of
>the Chalcedon Foundation (primary center of CR thinking) to the
>fundamentalist Christian world at large. The ideas percolating out of
>Chalcedon today will probably become standard fair in fundamentalist
>Christian thinking in 10 years. For a truly frightening experience,
>visit their website. Among other things, the want to replace the
>Constitution with the Bible and democracy with theocracy and to
>reinstitute patriarchal families and slavery. Since the Bible will
>become the law of the land, in their world, abortion, adultery,
>blasphemy, being an "incorregible child", and homosexuality will become
>capital crimes.
>
>Sunshine
>
Oh my gawd it must be true.....

Sheesh
Spam bait:
postm...@agis.net
postm...@uu.net
webm...@agis.net
in...@sonicnet.com
jo...@sonicnet.com
webm...@sonicnet.com

Your point?

And your point?

From Xtians?

Whether I misquoted Spammy or not isn't the issue. The issue is
whether Spammy will EVER produce an argument that doesn't rely on
bullshit circular reasoning.

The fact that you are disappointed just means that I can't please
everyone.

>This is not good.

Neither am I in some circumstances.

Right. Let me guess. If I had called him a sawed-off prick, you
would have been *less* disappointed?

Geo
atheist #15

Opps.... absolutely Rios Montt & the shepherds (which is to say
"right").

>I listened to Rush for about 10 minutes on Monday while in the car (note

i forgive you, i occasionally have to put up with rush myself.

>how apologetic I seem to be!) - he kept saying how the numbers didn't
>really matter, that if there wasn't a million there or not didn't really
>matter, blah blah blah. Remember how he ridiculed the Million Man March
>because the numbers weren't as large as they claimed? On and on about

yes, i have to tolerate that dumb cocksucker often enough to remember
that. i have also listened to his dumb shit enough to realize that he
will bully a twelve-year-old calling in to his show, and yet still
lose the debate, while in a cowardly fashion refusing to debate any
real challenger in public.

because he is a little coward.

(i note g. gordon liddy follows rush chronologically in my local
schedule, and is far superior, and will debate any goddamn person on
any goddamn thing. his politics are on the same vile level as rush,
but at least liddy has some damn integrity and balls that outweigh
rush's entire putrid frame.)

>the fucking numbers on that one! Yet, here - he gives PK a pass. What a
>hypocrite (surprised?). Remember how he ridiculed MMM's message - which
>was basically the same (respect your wife, family, community)? What's
>the difference here, huh?????

the difference is that farrakhan's loons were black, whereas
mccartney's loons are white.

nevermind, you were pointing that out yourself, with a bit of irony.

irony is a tricky task, though, some people miss it around these
parts. it's best to label it. as in **********IRONY
ALERT************

RED ALERT! (flash it like the heaven's gate site)

IRONY!!!!!!!!! THERE WILL BE !!!!!!!!!!IRONY!!!!!!!!!!! IN ABOUT A
HUNDRED YARDS! REALLY! DON'T TAKE THIS *****SERIOUSLY*****
OR ANYTHING!!!!

QUICK, IRONY IN FIFTY YARDS!

IRONY, UPCOMING IRONY!

but, you know, it's not really worth all that build-up. because even
if you go ahead and do that, some people will still miss it.

> You know, my husband made a promise to me before our rabbi, families,
>and friends. That was enough for me. Maybe I should have called ABC and
>had our vows televised nation wide for them to be valid.

nah.

>Take care
>Joni

rob

Michelle> And, did you notice the 'men providing for their
Michelle> wives' bit? That's fine, if it's what the wife
Michelle> wants, but what if she wants to work outside the
Michelle> home or not be married at all and totally
Michelle> self-supporting? You can bet these Neo-Nazis
Michelle> won't allow that kind of thinking for a minute.

Michelle> Also, once they got into power, you can bet that
Michelle> any members of the group from other than the white
Michelle> race will suddenly find themselves without a voice
Michelle> or any power at all in important
Michelle> decisions. Hopefully, the non-white members of
Michelle> this cult will come to their senses and recognize
Michelle> this cult for what it is - a pre-Nazi power grab
Michelle> using religion in the same way the Communists used
Michelle> atheism to gain power and control over non-members
Michelle> lives.

How long until the sign

Welcome to Gilead

welcomes you to America?

Scary...

tony

:Well, then we should all have their views by now. They've been around
:longer than 10 years. The Reconstructionists may have some minor
:influence, but then so does the secular environment. From what I can
:see, the majority still don't agree with them on many issues. Granted,
:on any given issue, there is likely to be a large amount of agreement,
:but I dare say that most Christians are not interested in establishing a
:theocracy in the U.S.

True. But what proportion would it take?

--
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/scn/ http://www.suburbia.net/~fun/scn/
I hereby encourage all earthlink.net users to leave for a provider whose
email and Usenet messages are not boycotted by the rest of the net, and
for ISPs to continue to block earthlink.net email and Usenet messages from
Earthlink, until earthlink.net *stop* the flow of junk email and spam.

<snip>

<snip>

While I do agree that the messages were similar, the difference was that
the MMM was designed ONLY for black men. IOW, it was an attempt to
separate on the basis of race, whereas the PK rallies have made it a
point to try and include all races.

Oze

But it was only open to men. So what the hell's the difference? Which
brings up another issue: who is supposed to be the spiritual leader in a
single-parent family that has only a mother? Is she supposed to go out and
find someone to oppress her?

Laura

Would that be because the Catholic Church controls the media or because
there is such a large base of Catholics there that the media determines
the audience would probably like to hear it?

They are going to put on what people will watch, won't they?

Oze

: Oze

The evidence points to non-Judeo-Christian values as held among media elite.
Michael Medved, one of the faithful few, usually expounds on that issue.

Of course you are. Haven't you been reading any PK material? Or the
Bible? That's exactly what they say....look for yourself. Do you
always believe everything you read on the internet?

How about, 'what's an orphan supposed to do?' Is she supposed to go out
and find some parents? Of course not! We PKers are against love and
family. We're for hate. Did you miss that part? It'll be on CSPAN
next Saturday. You can see them say it for yourself.

Good grief, you really need to start paying attention!

a.

Earth Firsters are trying to end abuses against the enviroment
by thoughtless industrialists. If you can't get a little fervant
against these abuses, somethings a little wrong with you.
Ferver can be dangerous in some cases though. If PK ferver
extends to allowing themselves to be sucked into the world of far right
Christianity by PK leaders, much of which is cranky and
foolish, who needs that knid of ferver? Hopefully, most
of these men will not go for that, will not get sucked into
the crazy world of evangelical sheperding movements, Identity
Christianity, reconstructivism, or other nonsense through the PK.

Sierra club is a 501(c)(4) org. This allows them to lobby.

PK is an org many other Christian organizations have connection with via
the leaders of PK. Not all are good upstanding sane church groups.

That is why I wear a kilt.

It has nothing to do with zippers scaring sheep.

>linkage to me, because I don't see where thats a necessary and sufficient

No doubt it is a hasty conclusion on my part. The logic of the PK
position, however, certainly points towards such a conclusion being
more than probable, in my opinion.

>Also, from what I saw on CNN, the PKs (at least publicly) have softened

>group are so big and amorphous right now that they are very susceptible

I'm basing my opinion on nothing more substantial than the occasional
interview I've heard with PK people over the past week. I don't know
the organization's official position, or even if they have one.

>end up that way. Think of it - what happened to all the charismatic
>evangelicals from the 1920-30's? Where is the Scourge of the 70's and

I tend to agree with you about that. I don't see Promise Keepers as
anything more than a fad -- less substantial than some of the other
fundamentalist Christian-backed organizations.

Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net

You provided only one pseudo-journalist (a television movie critic) in
support for your biased analysis.

What a surprise.

Geo
atheist #15

A fundamentalist Christian think-tank. What an oxymoron!

Chris Nelson (domain: ia.net)

<snip>

> > You mean like the "reactionary plutocrat" Ted Turner?
>
> Plutocrat he may be, but at least Turner 1) made his fortune himself
> and 2) has no problem sharing his wealth with the less fortunate.

No, Turner did not make his fortune himself, he inherited it. The
company was called Turner Outdoor Advertising. Granted, he didn't blow
it and actually made some pretty smart moves with it, but he started
from a fairly high level.

As far as sharing his wealth, read what Forbes had to say:

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/101496/5809040a.htm

here are some excerpts:

THAT [FORBES FOUR HUNDRED] list is destroying our country," Ted Turner
told New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd late this summer. The Mouth
of the South was wound up. "These new superrich won't loosen up their
wads because they're afraid they'll reduce their net worth and go down
on the list," Turner went on.

[...]

Ted told the writer that he had talked with Bill Gates and Warren
Buffett and that they told him they would be more philanthropic if they
got more credit for it.

That was news to Buffett: "I never had such a conversation with Turner
or with anyone else," says Buffett. Gates also denies having said
anything like that to Turner.

[...]

Turner has a way of exaggerating. In 1994 he announced he was giving
away another $75 million in three chunks of $25 million each for his
alma maters, Brown University and the McCallie School in Chattanooga,
Tenn., and his sons' alma mater, the Citadel.
 
Hold the applause. Turner didn't actually give $25 million to Brown. He
gave $1 million in each of the past three years-$3 million. He's
promised $1 million in 1997 and a final $1 million in 1998. In all, $5
million.

What happened to the other $20 million? He put that much worth of Turner
Broadcasting shares in a charitable trust in 1994. Each year Brown pays
him 6% in interest income--$1.2 million a year, or $6 million after five
years. Turner will be ahead of the game by $1 million at the end of five
years.

[...]

"I've decided to keep my 10% holding [in Time Warner] intact and fund my
foundation piecemeal each year," he admitted to Forbes. Why did he
change his mind? By holding on to his shares, he assures that he will be
the largest shareholder of Time Warner once its merger with Turner
Broadcasting is consummated.

Turner will own 10% of Time Warner. Thus he shades TCI Chairman John
Malone, who has 9%, Edgar Bronfman Jr., whose Seagram Co. controls 9%,
and Capital Group, a Los Angeles investment firm, with 7.5%.

Ego, Ted?

[...]

Some of Turner's fellow billionaires were steaming at his criticism of
them in the Dowd article. He singled out Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.

[...]

Buffett runs a tiny $20 million foundation, but the rest of his money,
$15 billion, is nestled in Berkshire Hathaway stock, where it has been
compounding at 29% a year for the past decade. Only a small percentage
of the estate will go to his kids when he dies. He told Forbes he plans
on leaving it to his wife, Susan Buffett, who in turn will leave it to
the foundation. Meanwhile, he's not throwing the money away. He could
easily finance his present lifestyle on 1% of his fortune. The rest
continues to compound. The richer he gets while on earth, the bigger the
pot for good works when he dies.

Gates, in his most detailed interview ever about his private
philanthropy, told Forbes he has already given away $270 million. His
foundation, which began operations only two years ago, has about $200
million. It gives mainly to higher education, population control and the
United Way, of which Gates is a national trustee and member of its
Alexis de Toqueville Society for major givers.

Gates says he has given away from personal funds another $70 million.
This included large gifts to the University of Washington for its law
school, a molecular biotechnology institute and support for
undergraduates. Another $6 million went to Stanford for a computer
science center. Organizations in Seattle got $3 million for a cancer
research center and $2 million for Symphony Hall.

So much for these "reactionary plutocrats" not sharing the wealth, huh?

> > And the "Lesbian Avengers" is the name of the group (note capital
> > letters used for proper names), so how is that some sort bias on the
> > part of the editor?
>
> The juxtaposition (do you know what that means?) of the newspaper's

Yes I do, ad-hominem attack aside.

> pro-Promise Keepers editorial with the blurb about the Lesbian Avengers
> was designed to demonize, for the benefit of the local Fundie knuckle
> draggers, anyone who might entertain one or more of the hatful of
> doubts any right thinking person might entertain about this particular
> manifestation of the Wacko Radical Right's agenda for a new AmeriKKKa.
>
> How's that for "some sort bias?"

And are you on the newspaper's editorial staff? How do you know why they
put an article in a particluar place? Pretty presumptuous of you.

Sounds more like your own delusions than anything.

<sig snip>

Oze

How many Germans were actually trying to establish a genocidal
dictatorship?
Compare and contrast.
I figure the US will hit critical mass in about 20 years.

That was *hardly* a fortune.

No thank you. I have no interest in what Forbes has to say about this.
Not that I'm trying to defend Turner's personal character or deny that
he has any ulterior motives. The man's a horse's ass and so is his
wife,
for that matter. But so is Forbes, and Forbes has an axe to grind
against anyone who doesn't cotton to his own peculiar brand of achieving
the American Dream on other people's backs.

In your case, *ad homunculum* is the more appropriate term.

They put it in that "particluar" place to suck up to the shit-rich
twats they want so desperately to advertise in the pathetic waste of
good newsprint they call a newspaper. As is, of course, their right.
I just hate it when the same people suck up to the Radical Wacko Right
and their megabucks while pretending to practice "objectivity."

I'd rather have what you call my "delusions" than be brainwashed into
believing what the son of Malcolm (the Capitalist Toolslurper) Forbes
wants me to believe.

- Raoul D. Xemblinosky III -=-=-=-=-=-=- -- . --- .-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
a.f.k-m.n "Meow meow Henrietta Pussycat meow meow
alt.flame meow The Presidents of the United States
alt.evil of America meow Kitty?" -- Matt Bruce
- http://super.zippo.com/~shpxurnq =-=-=- f.o.a. -=-=-=- mhm 15x12 -=

>Actually, considering the difference in numbers and that the event
>was a PK event, (not a NOW event) that was being protested, I thought
>that the coverage of the dissenters was given lots of time, at least in
>our local media. The National Public Radio coverage was interesting,
>not only covering dissenters, but an interview with a homosexual man who
>went to Promise Keepers with his brother, and the response he got from
>his liberal friends.

Promise Keepers? Here's how I see the future of PK...

Seeing as they aren't a bona-fide cult/religion, but rather a
collective cultivated mentality, they will begin to fade as
individuals come to realize they don't need them any more.
They will see they have to yield more to the concerns of *their*
church and *their* family rather than the generic programming
of the PK directives.

<snip>

> > No, Turner did not make his fortune himself, he inherited it. The

Yeah, that's true, but the point is he DIDN'T make it himself, as you
claimed.

IOW, you like being close-minded.

Do you not like wealthy people? Or think they do anything to help the
country?

<snip>

<sigh> Pretty sad and weak.

<snip>

How do you know? That's the point. You SAY they put is there "to suck up
to the shit-rich twats they want so desperately to advertise", but you
don't know. Unless you're there when they make the decision, can hear it
for yourself, and see the layout before it's printed.

Hey, who cares what he wants you to believe. You ought to at least have
an open enough mind to see other points of view, whether you agree with
them or not. To dismiss them out of hand signifies more of your mindset
than anything of Forbes.

<sig snip>

Oze

htimS werdnA <bou...@bounce.com> wrote in article
<343E35...@bounce.com>...
> Eileen Camilleri wrote:
> >
> > If putting your families first is this organization's primary purpose
why
> > don't you all "just do it!"?
> > What was the prayer fest and chest beating all about? It seems a bit
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Could you tell us more about the chest beating? Where did you see this?

Chest beating:
I am man, hear me speak. I am Christian man, hear me repent. I am head of
the house, watch me lead. And, Listen World, to my promises.

> > Why did you go?
>
> Why do you care?

Because I am trying to understand the motivations for such a mass public
display of what are normally private matters. Such as, personal
repentance, adultery, your relationship with your families.

Eileen

Whatever else PK may be, it is a *major* money maker.

--
Chris Lyman | home: chr...@minn.net | work: chris...@stpaul.gov
"I just forgot my whole philosophy of life!"

You're telling ME and my SON that we have NO RIGHT TO EXIST??

Fuck off.

>Fuck off.

give me an I
give me an R
give me an O
give me an N
give me a Y

whattaya got?

rob

Says who?

--
Ray Fischer
r...@netcom.com

If it wasn't a fortune, what does it matter whether he made it himself
or not?

That's a leap. Closing one's mind to the bajillionth rehashing of the
alleged virtues of the "trickle-down" theory is not the same as being
closed-minded.

I don't like or dislike wealthy people. I wish the wealthy people, as a
class, would pull more of their share of the load. Seeing that they
control
the government and the media, I don't see much danger of this happening.

> <snip>

I notice that you snipped the little grammar flame with which you began
this part of our little conversation. Now, that's pretty sad and weak.

> <snip>

OK. I give up. Maybe we can ask the omniscient STEVE FORBES for a
ruling on this question. You seem to be willing enough to take STEVE
FORBES's word for just about anything.